TRANSscript from Out of the Pan 16 August 2020

23 Aug , 2020


Presenter: Sally Goldner

Duration: 59min 04sec

Broadcast: Sunday, 16 August 2020 – 12:00 pm AEST

Voice-over: Thanks for downloading a 3CR podcast. 3CR is an independent Community radio station based in Melbourne, Australia. We need your financial support to keep going. Go to for more information and to donate online. Now stay tuned for 3CR podcast.

[Eddie Mabo by Neil Murray]

Sally Goldner: 3CR 855AM, 3CR digital, and, 3CR On Demand. Out of the Pan with Sally, first broadcasting noon till 1:00 every Sunday afternoon. Thanks for your company. 3CR proudly broadcasts from the lands of the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation, and we pay respect to Elder’s past, present, and emerging; and acknowledge any Aboriginal and/ or Torres Strait Islander people listening in. And the land was stolen and never seeded. Also acknowledging that the language used in this program is more of a western or Anglo-Saxon nature, and that there have been all sorts of ways to do gender identity and gender expression on every piece of land, and sometimes on water, all over this planet since time began, and if you want to if you want to get in touch with the show, there’s lots of ways to do so. You can look for the post on Facebook on my page and Sally Gardner AM – the only band to be on – and on Out of the Pan 3CR 855 AM Melbourne; and also SMS 61456 751 215. You can tweet @salgoldsaidso; you can do it by email as well

And well, you might want to get in touch with the show today because thanks to my dear friend and mentor Kayleen White, we had a little discussion with from which an idea emerged, we’ll call this the conversation cuppa starter or something, which I’ll talk a bit more about throughout the show today – and you might want to do one of these with me and see where we go rather than just do a sane interview, which of course you’re always welcome to do – and what it was was just this idea that sometimes there can be human rights heroes, some we know about I mean, an obvious one let’s say that might be Eddie Mabo, as sung by Neil Murray in our opening track from the 1999 album The Wondering Kind, fantastic recording; and also a well-known person on an international scale, Nelson Mandela. But sometimes there might be human rights heroes we don’t know about, and this is where – wanting your help today – if you’ve got a human rights hero, they don’t have to be as well-known or not, they could be LGBTI, they might not be, not really fussed about that; who is your human rights hero? social justice, and I’m also going to extend this idea beyond human rights and social justice, could be environmental justice, pop a comment in to me by one of the means, the aforementioned means, there’s a good word for today – it’s a bit like Sesame Street, isn’t it? Today’s word for the day is “aforementioned” – but we’re doing human rights Sesame Street. Well, who are your favourite human rights heroes? And to give you an idea of the sort of ideas, I’m going to play the little three-minute conversation I had with my friend Kayleen, and this will give you a bit of a starter, so let’s have a listen and see what you think. It says in light of the public – give a content warning here – mention of the horrible events that happened in Beirut, Lebanon in the last couple of weeks. So hence playing it this week.


And of course, there has to be a tech hitch. 😊Let’s just see what’s going on there. And see if we can give it another shot. Take two.

[Recording plays]

Kayleen White (recording): This week Sally, we’ve seen some terrible events in Lebanon and Lebanon’s had a bit of a sad history over the last few decades. But it’s easy to forget that Lebanon has quite a few marvellous people in it, and in fact a former ambassador from the United Kingdom to Lebanon when he left made a very striking speech and in it, he made a comment that the real dividing line is not between Christianity and Islam, Sonny and Cher, East and West; it is between people who believe in coexistence and those who don’t. He really quite fell in love with the people of Lebanon and to some extent I think the whole world owes a little bit of a debt to Lebanon because one of the three key intellectual lights behind the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was a Christian Arab by the name of Charles Malik. He blotted his copybook a little bit in the 60’s – but in the 40’s and early 50’s, he and the Chinese Confucian scholar PC Chang, and Eleanor Roosevelt were the leading lights behind the formulation of the, UDHR. They kept everybody working together, they kept all the ideas being debated, it considered and expressed until we came up with a product that’s been in place for so long now and has serve the world really well. So, it behoves the world to remember that Lebanon has contributed already well and truly to the world and it would be very good for the world to remember that and contribute now, in Lebanon’s time of need. What do you think Sally?

Sally Goldner (recording): I think you’ve really got something there, I mean to someone from the outside who may not know a lot, you know, and we talk of course can often get distorted views on mainstream media news that we just might think it’s a country that has been ravaged by civil war and that’s all we know, and of course that’s really unfair that if it is that perception because people are people trying to live their lives, and it has you say in the light of this terrible explosion that has happened and claimed so many innocent lives, and damaged others – many, for example, people in surrounding areas are homeless; their homes are uninhabitable or apartment buildings, structures been damaged and similar – I think that’s well worth remembering, and it was very good to see the French President visit I think very quickly, which I think was one sign as well of compassion and solidarity, President Macron. So yeah, I think it is important that we understand that, and have and be reminded of that that saying that even when it does appear to be divided, that we can find what matters about how we coexist. I could, just be to use a phrase I learned a few years ago from a mental health professional, I could be gently challenging and say it’s then how we achieve it. Now I also have a personal saying – how do you communicate with someone who won’t listen? – and I suppose when one party won’t listen and therefore finds it hard to coexist that’s where we could have a challenge.

[recording ends]

Sally Goldner: Indeed. So, some thoughts in there. What are your thoughts? Human rights heroes; known or unknown; how to communicate? There’s our conversation starter, the first I hope of many – and I’ll come back and talk about the process as well as this issue – but if you’ve got your human rights heroes, get in touch with me via all the means of communication email, SMS 61456751215, tweet @salgoldsaidso – and that’s the bottom line – and look for the posts on Facebook 3CR 855 AM Melbourne and my page Sally Gardner AM. And of course, a reminder any opinions expressed on this so by me my own personal opinions. Let’s have a listen now to someone who’s, well, I think that he – and in this case, this band – have always fought for human rights, and bit of a 70’s classic. 3CR 855AM, 3CR digital, and 3CR On Demand. Out of the Pan with Sally.

[Nuclear Cop (Live) by Redgum]

Voice-over: Able-bodied Australia does not realise that people with disabilities across the board are being discriminated against. Then the government to demand that we go out and get a job without removing the disincentives like the lack of access to transport, a community infrastructure, without providing accessible buildings that can provide barrier-free employment. I’m not getting a fair go, and I don’t like it, and I’m saying so.

Voice-over: You’re listening to 3CR 855 on the AM dial.

Voice-over: Published… or Not has been around for years. But now, Jan Goldsmith is joined by David McLean. We will chat about words and writing, authors and audiences, publishers, and printing. The voice for them all on 3CR Published… or Not, every Thursday, 11:30 till noon.

Sally Goldner: 3CR 855AM, 3CR digital,, 3CR on-demand. Out of the Pan with Sally, first broadcasting noon until one every Sunday afternoon. Thanks for your company. And well, human rights heroes. Well, John Schumann, you could say he’s way, bit of a human rights social justice hero who stood up for things, you know, sort of with his sense of humour and irony, might play some more music from John. Excuse me. Why is it the cough always comes up just when you start a new segment? Might play some more music from John later on-air, live radio people of all genders. So, human rights heroes.

Well, one who I like – and I think, well, human rights and social justice just to expand that a little – is, I’m going to go for Greta Thunberg. Now, you can argue about her views, I don’t claim to be a climate expert, lots of great climate shows you can – and environment type shows you can listen to on 3CR; Earth Matters at 11 o’clock Saturday; also forgot to thank the crew from Out of the Blue for diving deep for the marine news, every Sunday from 11:30 till noon; and whilst it’s not quite environment, sort of ballpark of the same thing, and that’s of course Freedom of Species, which follows at one o’clock. So lots of environmental news, but I think Greta Thunberg deserves extra credit because she’s just – well, she’s out there doing it, which takes courage and initiative but then of course she faces not only people with the sort of poor record on environment and – sorry, who – sorry, but when I say poor record environment, people who would disagree with the views, often with vested interests or other things – but then of course Greta sadly faces youth phobia; and then she faces, well, I could use the term prejudice on the basis of disability, a point that one might go stronger than prejudice – vilification and/ or prejudice and vilification on the basis of her neuro-processing and of course, you know, I doubt, you know, it’s just another excuse to have a go at someone.

So, definitely, there’s someone who stands up for what he believes in and is just amazing, and of course the thing with Greta, of course, is how much she’s inspired people, we’ll have to say pre-COVID, to do the climate change rallies and you know what she’s done and of course great signs that at those rallies; one that stood out for me, I things are so bad even the introverts are here – introverts of the world unite, quietly together in our own homes – which leads me into someone else you could name who you know who, in a way has done stuff for, you know, sort of for human rights and social justice and inclusion and that’s people who have written books about introverts like Susan Cain who wrote Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking, says this person who comes and talks at you for an hour every Sunday, but then has to go and lie down quietly afterwards because I need – introverts recharge in personal space, that sort of thing. Also, I want to give credit, whilst Susan Cain’s book is possibly the world’s… that book is possibly the world’s most well-known book when it comes to introversion, do like to give credit to two other books, there’s The Introvert Advantage by Marti Laney, and there’s also Introvert Power. Yes, we’ll do that. What is it? Yes, introverts of the world, unite quietly together in your own homes, via the internet, and it’s been interesting that introverts, well, no, and of course no disrespect to extroverts or – of course, because we don’t like binaries; ambiverts – yeah, that introverts have seemed to have been ok with this. I also identify with the trait that has some crossover, although it’s not the same as an introvert, but that’s the highly sensitive person where we pick up on energies a lot.

Well, haven’t had a lot of that there and for the last six weeks, but we also need our support in our way one-on-one, that sort of thing. And the other great book on introversion is Introvert Power by Laurie Helgoe. Now, they’re people who in their way, whilst you mightn’t call them “advocates” as such or things like that, or of course, if I was on commercial radio it’d be “these lefty activists” – sorry got that wrong, lefty, politically correct, oversensitive, pinko, greenie, tree-hugging activists – I’ll  just get my tongue out of my cheek, the other great introvert book is Introvert Power by Laurie Helgoe, PHD. Eh, what’s up, Doc? You’re a PhD. Seriously, there’s lots of people who have done things to communicate information about diversity, that’s a form of human rights advocacy, and have had a response, a couple of responses from the fabulous Roving Reporter who says “I liked Frida Kahlo, (K-A-H-L-O) as she communicated her activism through art”. Yep. There’s another way you could be an activist who does things through art. I think if I may say so, I’d be willing to – and I think she’d be okay with this – nominate Sarah Ward, the person behind Yana Alana, Queen Kong and other great characters, for what she does and Roving goes on to “She may not be defined as a human rights activist by some but she is still relevant today years after her death. I also admire people like John Lewis who passed away recently in the USA”. Oh absolutely, “there’s someone in there, he wasn’t mentioned a lot in our media until his death but his contribution to race relations in the USA is very significant and his funeral procession was incredibly beautiful Sally”. Yep, did see a bit of that on the news. Also, another message, also from Roving, “I’ve also always admired Gillian Triggs when she was at the HRC despite the relentless harassment by News Corp and the IPA” and that of course… yeah the… against her, yes – but it’s their individual freedom to do it – oh sorry, I just slipped in a puddle of my own sarcasm.

Anyway, what else have we got? We’ve had another message or two here from sort of… sort of… ah yes. Here’s someone. Now here’s, here’s one of perhaps the lesser-known people and we sometimes play this person on the show, Kayleen says “Greta is a great choice. On local choice for consideration, how about Penelope Swales? Apart from her music, she worked extremely hard to get legal qualifications, you can also get a list of people on Kayleen’s blog” and I’ll say this and then spell it and that is gnwmythr, and I hope I’ve got that right, I apologise. So better spell it, heroines and as we click on it, we’ll see who comes up here. This is the sort of discussion we like, heroines and heroes and of course, there could be what ah – here’s another topic for today; what’s the non-binary equivalent word of heroines and heroes, or all-inclusive, gender all-inclusive award? Word that is. So, Greta Thunberg; Malala Yousafzai; Kamala Harris, yes, who’s nominated for Veep; Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez; Nyadol Nyuon; on we go, Jacinda Ardern, yep, oh gosh – please, can you benignly invade Australia please Jacinda at a national level and then just appoint Daniel Andrews deputy or something? That’ll do. Justin Trudeau, had his ups and downs there but I think a lot of – I’ll come back to that point as well – and Ruth Bader Ginsberg, yep.

Others in the past: Nelson Mandela; Abraham Lincoln; Eleanor Roosevelt; Charles Malik, who quoted earlier, Peng Chun [Chang]; Martin Luther King Jr., who of course, Totally Gourdgeous featuring Penelope Swales did a song [sic] about it, and if I thought of this then last week, I would have held off and played that song this week; Mahatma Gandhi; many, many others here, we could go on. So, there’s Steve Biko and there’s lots here, so yeah, plenty of people who could be your heroes. So yeah, keep sending them in, people of all genders: who are your human rights, social justice and, as I say I’m going to expand this to environment, just as type of heroic people I think is the best way I can come up with for now. Let’s have that rolling, and good news: small technical hitch solved.

Here’s someone who has definitely been a hero I think for many people, and I’d also say that, you know, some people don’t like the word, I totally acknowledge what the sadly missed but late and great Stella Young – there’s another one, they’re just flowing now, aren’t they? – who you know, didn’t like the… he may have created, you mentioned the term “inspiration porn”, and I think sometimes that can be that way, but someone who, well, in a positive sense of the word is inspiring and heroic is Archie Roach, and here’s one of his classic tracks from many years ago from the album Charcoal Lane, and well, perhaps we’ll give a content warning here for a difficult topic, it’s his song Took the Children Away. But at least this song has some, [sic] certainly this song has some positives towards the end as well. 3CR 855AM, 3CR digital, and 3CR On Demand. Out of the Pan with Sally.

[Took the Children Away by Archie Roach]

Sally Goldner: 3CR 855AM, 3CR digital,, 3CR On-Demand. Out of the Pan with Sally, first broadcasting noon until one every Sunday afternoon. Thanks for your company. Well, what a beautiful track and there’s someone, yeah, who I think could be described as a human-rights, social justice type of hero: Archie Roach from Charcoal Lane. And the children came back, took the children away and they did come back but – musical credits on that: the late, great Steve Connolly on electric guitar; Dave Arden on acoustic; Paul Kelly on acoustic guitar and vocal harmonies; James Black on organ; Ray Pereira on it says here “flash and tambourine”; Rob Dylan on symbol; and Tim Finn on vocal harmony.

So, yep, that’s a pretty awesome, you know, sort of example of people standing up – of doing their social justice through art in the broader sense of that word and well, we hope we can do more art in some ways in the near future, [sic] in the near future again, very soon. Obviously going tough for artists who you know sort of, are often more on the progressive side, you get a tougher so, you know, [sic] situation, who faced tougher situations – and also, you know sort of, [sic] what was I going to say? Yeah. Also, of course a large percentage of LGBTIQA+ people, for whom this program is a considerable central focus of, in there as well. And Kayleen has also nominated her partners, her partner Charlotte and her other partner Sarah, and that is, I believe that would be Charlotte’s other partner “for their dog rescue and vegan and other activism” and also says “brave effort with gnwmythr”, I hope I’ll get it right, I’ll keep, we’ll practice that. Perhaps if you can do the, send in the phonetics to me on that one Kayleen, and we’ll go for third time lucky. Yep, and of course remember animal activism and vegan and vegetarian activism, coming up at 1 o’clock with the fabulous crew from Freedom of Species, doing great things there. So yeah, lots of activists. Now I want go back to Rovings comment about, sort of, Gillian Triggs and I really admire Gillian, I wanted to mention this and Roving, I think quite reasonably mentions the relentless harassment by News [sic] “News Corpse”, as it’s called or “Murder Media”, including the “Daily Terror” and the “Herald Scum”, and… we need to come up with some, well, I suppose now for the, I don’t know, the Brisbane equivalent. Well, definitely “The Courier Toxic Mail”, but anyway, if you’ve got a better name come up, with it.

So yeah lots in there, and yeah, look, Gillian has I think kept her dignity in an incredible way, you know in face of those comments, and I think and it was interesting a few years ago that the news periodical Crikey gave her the person, [sic] their Person of the Year award or Australian of the Year type award, and in the same list was Roz Ward who is also of course faced similar horrendous attacks from “News Corpse” and you know, I think that they manage to keep their dignity in public – and I’m sure they have their supports – is pretty awesome. Now, we did call human rights and social justice the same, some, the fact that Daniel Andrews is facing relentless grilling’s every day, and is up now – what is it? 42-44 days in a row, [sic] lost count – quite amazing. Roving’s put in a good one here, “is Bono”, front man U2, “a great human rights activist or as some people think a pretentious rock star using social causes for his own ego Sally? Are celebrities worthy to be champions and where do we draw the line with shallow activism?” Excellent questions Roving. Let’s look at the broader one first. May [sic] not be the best most philosophical quote of all time, but I’m going to throw one of my own in here and it’s an adaption of a certain superhero, Batman, “use your privilege for good and not evil purposes, Robin”.

Now, there is some, possibly, degree of pretentiousness to Bono but, [sic] can’t deny also what he did, I mean, whether it’s faded in more recent times and the, you know, the when you look at the original U2 sound, that raw, sort of, social conscious sound, you know, “it takes seconds to start a war” and all those sorts of songs and, Sunday Bloody Sunday, which of course, if you’ve ever listened to the live album [U2 Live at Red Rocks: Under a Blood Red Sky] is not a rebel song, that was about something else. Seriously, you know, there was some passion in those songs, and I’ve got to admit by the time I got to Lemon – which I think was an appropriately named song – I  think I’d given up. I can’t say I agree though, with people who spat the dummy a few years ago because they got a free download of U2’s latest album, you know, I think it was in one of their smartphone platforms – well, just don’t listen, you know that sort of thing. So yeah, I think he’s done some good work. I think a good example of people using their celebrity status for good, I’d give credit to Sting, I think Sting’s done some good things. Don Henley whose, [sic] and The Walden Woods Project, are a couple of others on the music front, said this long [sic] Eagles fan, and of course listeners to this show are long-suffering Eagles and Eagles solo fans with me.

Now, yeah sort of, where are celebrities worthy of being champions? Well, I think you can be both – as I say, it’s how you use it. Where do we draw the line with shallow activism? Well, it’s where people perhaps don’t stop and think beyond their own experience might be one criteria, you know, when you have, you know, I can think of one person in the LGBTI community who was all over – a few years ago, of course, this was – the well, probably use the term same-sex marriage or gay marriage, and wouldn’t use the term “LGBTI” because in her words “it’s too hard to explain that to straight audiences”, now, this person was a cis-gender, heterosexual woman who was the parent of a, [sic] had a gay son. Fine if you want to talk about your own personal experiences; fine if you want to talk about marriage so that it was not discriminatory, fine; but don’t then erase the other people. So that’s a fail. And [sic] I’ll of course, we could mention others Caitlyn Jenner hasn’t always got it, right. There’s also other people we could debate. So yeah, it’s about how you do it. A sense of humility I think goes a long way.

Kayleen’s come back and said the “g” is silent – bit of a nod to the Welsh – so the phonetics are “new-meth-a, new-meth-a”, I will now say that over and over as we do the next track.

So other comments, Roving said ”What do you think makes a great human rights activist?” well, I think humility is an important thing, and I think this is also leading on to another important topic, that you can stand for the group’s you identify with. So for me, let’s use this person as a straw case, obviously I think I can speak pretty strongly on broad issues for bi and trans. But I can’t speak for you know, say broadly, people of colour and if the issue specifically is trans people of colour, then I need to switch to be an ally.

So I think that’s another criteria, is to be able to move seamlessly from leader to then have the humility to be an ally and be led in a way by others, and that’s you know, and when we live in a toxic masculinity society, which defines leadership as “take charge, stand tough” [sic] look, listen to the voice that I did that in and that’s possibly deliberate, and possibly unconscious. I think that says something about people who can round out their leadership styles. There’s a great article from a few years ago on leadership and it’s about having that ability to move seamlessly from perhaps a more direct style to a more conciliatory style, sometimes even in the same meeting where you have to deal with different people, give people we’ll say individual centered communication styles.

Who else have we got? Roving’s nominated Jane Fonda, which is a fair call, and I think that’s pretty reasonable, I think she’s stood up for feminism. I mean, she’s still doing it, she got arreste. I think recently, I think it was over, honestly can’t remember which protest it was it may have been Black Lives Matter forgive me a but I know it rings a bell.

Well, [sic] I’m telepathy hero thing after all these years. Midnight Oil is a group that is worthy of recognition especially with Peter Garrett, well I’ll back that. Gee, I wonder what track I’ve got planned for the end of the show. And Roving said, “I’d love to know who it is” well, yeah, we’ll come back to that or maybe, maybe not. And someone else has popped in with a comment, let’s have a look at this one, and the person is just signed their name “O”, I think I know who it is. Oh, well, alright. I’ll borrow from Wendy Rule who once said “when you get a compliment take the fresh air and breathe it in”, “Sally, you are our activist hero. You don’t only stand up for us, but you see and have an underlying love and compassion for every human being, cause or emotion. I look something” I’m not going to read that last one out there I’ll say from “O”, no. You know the thing is we can model ourselves on other people, and I’ve been fortunate to have, you know, sort of, [sic] model ourselves, and you know, we can admire them and learn from but you don’t have to feel in any we’ll say, bad next to someone, we can all just keep learning, you know, and this is where our eyes, and I’ve said a few times over the last few months, I’m still learning about issues for black, indigenous people of colour. And Roving’s come back and said “great analysis Sally. It’s why the BLM”, Black Lives Matters “movement has so many issues with some white middle-class people being quite pretentious and shallow about race”. So yeah, there’s a fair call, you know, I think that it does take work. I think you know, it’s sort of, I think you can sometimes, I would prefer personally to see allies, you know, take small steps, give it a shot, maybe you’ll get it wrong, just as long as you keep learning and I’m sure I have got things wrong on things that are beyond my lived expertise, so that’s really important.

And someone who’s well, putting money in is where her mouth is this week, who’s also long-suffering music listens to this show will know about is Dolly Parton, who has changed the name of I think it was a her theme park from “dixie” to something else because “dixie” can be considered racially offensive and she’s probably [sic], she could possibly lose business so there’s giving up some privilege which is a fair call. So lots to consider in there. That’s really worth, sort of, thinking about. Yeah, and of course within the LGBTI community it is now time for cis-gender monosexual gays and lesbians to give up their privilege. Lots of people waited very, with great restraint I’ll say, or the best restraint possible – not in a kinky way – maybe, maybe they did – for marriage equality to happen. Now, it’s time for gays and lesbians to stand back and give bi, trans, intersex, asexual, everyone else a shot – particularly intersex, and of course a reminder that there’s two big intersex days in a couple of months. Start planning your events for late October,  early November and if you are a person with a variation of sex characteristics the offer is always there to tell your personal story.

And Roving’s come back and says that they agree with the listener. It really means a lot to get those compliments I mean, I love doing what I’m doing, but of course we have our ups and downs and it is [sic] thank you very much for those kind words. All right, I think I’d better take a breath. Activists need to take a breath in literally and metaphorically – so I’ll do that. And also [sic] happily we’ve fixed up some technical hitches earlier in the show, we’ll just say when in doubt, with the program close and restart, and of course that’s inevitably going to work. In the meantime, have a listen to someone who, sort of always sort of, stood up for the underdog have a bit of this track I reckon if we’ve got time, we have. Here’s another one I said, I’d play another one from John Schumann, this is one from one of his solo albums True Believers, which has all sorts of influential figures up to about 1992 on the front when it was published, some for better or worse, but here’s someone who you know, and I think this is so pertinent today when we have some strange business people trying to influence Australia and the world, it’s a track called Fallen Angel. 3CR 855AM, 3CR Digital,, and 3cr on-demand. Out of the Pan with Sally.

[Fallen Angel by John Schumann]

Voice-over: Published… Or Not has been around for years. But now Jan Goldsmith is joined by David McLean. We will chat about words and writing, authors and audiences, publishers and printing. A voice for them all on 3CR. Published… Or Not, every Thursday, 11:30 till noon.

Voice-over: Yo, peace, this is RodStarz. What up this G1. This [sic] DJ Illinois, and together we are Rebel Diaz. And whenever [sic] we out here, we listen to 855AM, 3CR Digital, You already know what it is, free radical radio. Go! 3CR!

Sally Goldner: 3CR 855AM, 3CR Digital, and 3CR On-Demand. Out of the Pan with Sally, first broadcasting noon till one every Sunday afternoon, thanks for your company.

Couple of the humorous things that have happened during the week. Well, there’s apparently a spat going on between a Trump campaign adviser and Marge Simpson, “Homer!” well, no, and well, the character said she’s starting to feel a little disrespected in a clip after someone called Jenna Ellis said, Kamala Harris “sounds like Marge Simpson”. So what? You know, seriously – that’s what American politics is and I mean, you know the attacks on Kamala Harris and we won’t mention a certain newspaper. Someone else has thanked me for the work, thank you, Kayleen.

So yeah, that’s what we’ve come to. But on a really humorous note, this just came up in my feed over the weekend; stupid survey questions believe this one or not, I’m looking at this on the screen now, I don’t know if this is real or not, but it’s still funny: “have you ever been in an accident that resulted in your death?” Hmm. I’d have to send a gmail to to find out whether to answer yes or no. Seriously who writes these things?

Yeah. As someone I used to know said “I got good grandma”, good grammar. Couple of other messages, oh, yes the person who emailed in the “O” was a hug at the end, thank you. I’ll just say person Z. My apologies, [sic] a bit excited there but yes, safe distance hugs back to you and all listeners. Please stay safe out there, please sort of, keep an eye on, you know, follow the restrictions, it does look like things are moving in the right direction which is really good, and we can have less restrictions soon. Wear you mask where are you know, totally acknowledging that people, you know, may not be able to wear masks due to past trauma; breathing issues, but let’s you know, if someone isn’t wearing a mask don’t just rush in and lecture – ask why – and we’ve seen disastrous consequences of that during the week with a older male police officer, you know, gang tackling of young vulnerable petite female to the ground.

Other comments ”cis, gay, middle class, gay men need to acknowledge their own inherent bias, and sometimes that leads to uncomfortable conversations when they’re at the top of the tree in our community” Yes, exactly. I better not say any more, or the whole podcast will be removed as happened before, hmm, there’s a hint. “It’s their responsibility to educate themselves and be respectful of other individuals outside their own bubble. Privilege Sally leads to toxicity” yes, I’d agree with that. And the other comment, “one last person I admire in the queer/ bi community by black/ indigenous/ people of colour space is Jameela Jamil. Check out her podcast and social media. Sassy, smart and thoughtful” I’ll go with that any day, and Roving also says “have a lovely week and I hope that all the activists take time to have a life and look after themselves so they continue their wonderful work” yeah got to do self-care, and I remember in episode a while ago, which is probably still available ,where Freedom of Species, coming up next if you’re listening live or of course check out their podcast, talked about self-care for activists as well. Well, I promised you a Midnight Oil track, so I will deliver on my promises, I am not a politician. Seriously, take it out today with a track from Midnight Oil from their live album of 1992, which is always a fav, and Sometimes, from the [sic] which was originally recorded at Our Common Future in Darlinghurst 1989. Thanks for tuning in to Out of the Pan, I’m Sally Goldner. Catch ya next week.

[Sometimes by Midnight Oil]

TRANSscript from Out of the Pan 12 July 2020

16 Aug , 2020  

In an effort to increase, even to some degree, the inclusiveness for Out of the Pan, especially in those times where connection is more vital then ever, I’m trying something out.

I’ve created a TRANSscript for the edition of Out of the Pan that went to air on 12 July as per

For what it’s worth, the audio file was converted by a software program (Sonix) and then edited by a human.

While I’ve consulted with those with lived expertise in an effort to make this idea inclusive, I’m sure it will be a work in progress. I admit to anxiety as I want to be respectful of needs and have held off for some time; I do hope this can improve.

I want to give thanks to the awesome Sarah Ward for her inclusive Midsumma 2020 show which originally got my mind turning over about this idea. Thank you (as always) for your leadership and respect for diversity.

The file is in both PDF and text form below

Disclosure, Amy Dyess and freedom of responsibility

Presenter: Sally Goldner

Duration: 59min 49sec

Broadcast: Sunday, 12 July 2020 – 12:00 pm

Voice-over: Thanks for downloading a 3CR podcast. 3CR is an independent Community radio station based in Melbourne, Australia. We need your financial support to keep going go to for more information and to donate online now stay tuned for 3CR podcast.

Sally Goldner: Panoply, panorama, panpipe, pansy, a-ha – pansexual. Knowing no boundaries of sex or gender – sound interesting? Then join Sally on Sundays at noon for Out of the Pan. All those gender questions making you think too hard? Whether it’s transgender, bisexual, polyamorous, or beyond – we’ll throw those questions into the pan and cook up the answers for you. So [sic] go on, push that gender envelope only on 3CR 855AM digital, and

[Leilani by Hoodoo Gurus]

Sally Goldner: 3CR 855AM, 3CR digital, and 3CR On Demand. Out of the Pan with Sally first broadcasting noon till one every Sunday afternoon. Thanks for your company. 3CR proudly broadcasts from the lands of the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation, and we pay respect to Elder’s past, present, and emerging, and acknowledge any Aboriginal or [sic] and/ or Torres Strait Islander peoples listening in to the show from any land on [sic] on and around the large part of this continent that it is and acknowledge that the land was stolen and never seeded and was, [sic] always will be Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander land.

Lots of ways to get in touch with the show. You can look, email in You can SMS 61456751215. You can tweet @salgoldsaidso – and that’s the bottom line – and you can look for the posts on Facebook on my page Sally Goldner, and on Out of the Pan 3CR 855 Melbourne, and remember any opinions expressed on the program are strictly my own and any coincidence to opinions and policies of organisations living or dead is pure coincidence or something like that. If you want to get in touch with the show yeah, they’re the best ways to do it. And of course, thanks to the crew from Out of the Blue. Diving deep for the marine news as they do every Sunday from 11:30 till noon. Always lots of informed opinion and varied opinion on marine environment issues.

There will be, probably, need for general content warnings for all the topics on the show today. Content warnings for emotional abuse and transphobia which will be mentioned but not in detailed description, [inaudible] transphobia, not so much detailed description, we’ll say moderate, low to moderate level but probably medium-ish level for the emotional abuse in my subjective opinion. So just uh, be warned; I’ll talk about the gist of the topic first and then if you are – as much as we love having your listenership on 3CR – if it is stressful, please look after yourself, particularly in these times. If anything is distressing, you can call QLife including [sic] switchboard in Victoria and Tasmania on 1800 184 527 – and if anything relates to Family Violence, remember the WithRespect for LGBTIQA+ people on 1800 542 847.

There’ll be three topics on the show today; in the next segment I’m going to talk about a story that hasn’t got a lot of coverage yet in Australia and it will link into some current issues, and that’s the story of Amy Dyess. This is, it’s disturbing but probably not surprising in a way to a lot of trans people. Amy is, well, by her own description, she is a prodigal butch, [cough] excuse me, also have a chat about how that links into a current issue, I won’t say anymore for now.

But also; [sic] want to look at the show disclosure and I want to do that straight, [sic] right off the bat so to speak; and have a chat about it. Now, there will be mentions of transphobia – and the discussion here is about transphobic comment in what I’ll call art/ fictional media – a topic that of course, has been a big one. Now disclosure is a commentary on all of the all of the various [sic], um sort of, um you know, sort of, it’s a movie or documentary if you like, on all the trans phobic media that has existed over the years – not so much in news media and gosh knows we need to talk about that and I will around the third segment linking into a few stories for today – but it’s also now the issue, and it’s a show that is on Netflix and you can sign up I think to Netflix for free for a month – but it talks about trans lives on screen, a 2020 American documentary film and it’s directed and produced by Sam Feeder; and it’s an in-depth look of Hollywood’s depiction of trans people on their stories of trans life and American culture, which does immediately, sort of pause to a limitation that it is American focused as, sadly, so often things are. But it is – overwhelmingly we’ll say, narrated and commented on, if not totally, I should say – by a range of American trans people. Some proverbial big names, Laverne Cox; and very good name is Susan Stryker, a fantastic historian; Chaz Bono, fair to say the world’s most recognizable in the in terms of the public, trans man just to name a few; Brian Michael Smith; Lilly Wachowski, one of the Wachowski [inaudible] trans twins – no slip intended there – and  it premiered on [sic] at the Sundance Film Festival back in January this year and then Netflix acquired distribution rights and it was released on June 19th so it was made before the current, we’ll say, rightful increase in interest – and there’s it’s very important to note that the film covers trans people but a range thereof – including trans women of colour; trans men; trans men of colour; and of course there is a totally valid increase in interest on that that has occurred in the last six weeks with the increased and much-needed increase in interest, which of course the issue is always been there of Black Lives Matter, which is so important and it is really good. According to Wikipedia it holds a 97 percent approval rating on review aggregator website Rotten Tomatoes; 31 reviews, 7.1/10 weighted average. So I think this you know, is much needed. It’s certainly positive; it looks, as I say, in a very diverse way – I think obviously as I mentioned trans live, [sic] uh trans lives of trans people of colour, really important to talk so much about that – but also, I think it’s good that now it does look at trans men’s issues – both white and people of colour – often they are, those issues get a erased, and for trans men, there can be a huge sense of erasure. If there are you know, I’ll say, challenges with this, it is triggering. I watched it in a reasonably, you know, we’ll say calm state of mind but was still upsetting and frustrating and angering because it does look a lot of things and I’d really you know, that’s where I you know, look at the content warning are if you are planning to watch and I think you can get Netflix free for a month and then cancel it if you want to do that if you can’t afford Netflix on an ongoing basis. So you know in that sense, it’s good, but I think what really needs to happen – with all due respect – is cisgender people need to watch this, because it can move and I have to say I didn’t find out about this doco – or actually it is a movie as it’s listed I should say but it’s a movie/ doco if you like – until a cisgender gay man in Melbourne wrote a Facebook message me and says “I unconditionally apologise for how I’ve spoken to you as trans woman in the past”. Now, I have to be honest, I can’t remember this person mistreating me, but I think it’s very good that someone even if they haven’t would write and say that; if that’s how moving it is, that’s important. So I’d really – if you’re a trans person, you know, if you feel up to having a look, have a look at it, but encourage the cisgender people in your lives to do that, and look at what happens when we are we get mis-cast including by some elements of gay men. The film [that] ticked off trannies with knives, for example, which now, regardless of the controversy around it was apparently considered a poor-quality film that was too long. You know, we need trans people in charge of trans issues including trans media of all sorts. And God knows we could do another Wikipedia if we looked at bad trans media coverage, which again I’m going to link into in around the third segment. The other issue is it is American focused so it ignores other things, and here’s where I’ll raise the content warning just a little, the, [sic] I will call it the physical possibly-sexual assault scene in Crocodile Dundee for example – the first Crocodile Dundee to put that in context – where Mick Dundee has just found out that he, the character,  and I can ever remember her name, Linda Kozlowski is going to marry Richard, he goes and has too many drinks in a New York Bar, and in my opinion physically, if not sexually assaults that character does [sic], a person who is either a drag queen and/ or trans woman, and that doesn’t get a mention. There’s also a film which my dear friend and mentor Julie Peters has mentioned many times called Freebie and the Bean, where – huge content warning here, this is the biggest of this segment – the so-called “hero” of the film decides to murder someone who we’d call trans or gender diverse, you know, just because they’re trans. And Julie talks about when she went to see it in the cinema in the [sic] in the 1970s, how sadly the entire you know, sort of movie was, you know, sort of people in the audience just sort of clapped as if to say, well wasn’t that good and, [sic] and you know sort of it’s a very sort of worrying thing that that sort of thing could happen. Imagine if it was someone decided I’ll just going to murder – and I can use this analogy – someone of Jewish background, the critical reception according to Wikipedia of that one. By the way, Variety calls it “a tasteless comedy about two dumb cops breaking the law”. Oh, I could probably go on there, but I’d better not so yeah lots to consider. I would really urge people to who are up for it to try to watch it, and then you know, think about how you can be a better ally to trans people in your life. But it is good to see it made, I would point out the [sic] part at the end is where we finally in the sort of about the latter part of the 2000’s look at where you know, there’s been more positive and holistic representation of trans and gender diverse people in Hollywood type of stuff, such as Laverne Cox in Orange Is the New Black but of course, we still have the issue to go where people automatically cast well-known cis actors and I have to say once I’ve turned down a consulting role on an Australian film because they just wanted a big name to play the trans character – I wasn’t going to play the character, I just want to wear that woman’s costume, that’s a different thing altogether – but good luck to the actress who now has that great to see a black bi woman – a BBB as someone said – playing that character, I’ll come back to that quickly in the next segment. But yeah, I refused to do it and I don’t care, if any other trans person does that then frankly they’re selling out. The first option needs to go to for trans people to play trans characters, trans women playing trans women and so on. It doesn’t mean that trans people should be typecast in those roles either. They should be able to have a go at anything else, but when for example a cis man plays a trans woman, it just ends up creating the same stereotypes and it is also up to – in my opinion – the people in positions of prominence and influence to start such as casting directors to be aware of their obligations here. I will not compare it to black face, as white person that is not my case, but you just this idea that people can stereotype and mimic another group is not on and you know, it’s sort of it’s not funny either and I’ll come back to that in a later segment as well. So, welcome your thoughts on any of that. If you are tuning in, pop me an email as a or an SMS or tweet away and [sic] have your thoughts about that.

In the meantime, after opening up with the Hoodoo Guru’s Leilani, and I’ve got to say played that, I’ve obviously been a classic Aussie Rock fan is long-suffering listeners of the show will know obviously been aware of that, but I’d never seen the original film clip until a few weeks ago and it’s just [sic] so cute with all the 80’s fashions, I thought I’d better play the song. Anyway, let’s have a listen to someone who I’ll play while playing this song and another one. Here’s the Rosie Burgess Trio and Stack Hat 3CR 855AM, 3CR Digital, and 3CR On Demand Out of the Pan with Sally.

[Stack Hat by Rosie Burgess Trio]

Voice-over: I’m Jane Clifton; author, musician, actor, marriage celebrant, author of The Address Book. I’ve always been fond of 3CR, and not just because they played the song by my band Stiletto, Woman in Trouble fifty thousand times, I was grateful for that, but that was a few years ago. Here I am again after all these years and so is 3CR. Still supporting musicians and writers and people with ideas to share. Keep going 3CR!

Voice-over: On Saturday, July 18th between 1:00 and 4:00 pm, 3CR will be broadcasting the Smith Street Dreaming Retrospective, an afternoon looking back over the past seven years of the Smith Street Dreaming Festival. Hosted by Viv Mahler and Dave Arden, past performers, and special community guests will share their stories their history and music of the annual Smith Street Dreaming Festival supported by the Smith Street Working Group, City of Yarra and 3CR Community Radio. This Saturday the 18th at 1pm on your community radio station 3CR. Smith Street Dreaming – one street, many mobs, one community.

Sally Goldner:  3CR 855AM, 3CR digital, and 3CR On Demand. Out of the Pan with Sally, first broadcasting noon till 1:00 every Sunday afternoon Australian Eastern Standard Time. Great to have a messaging from Melina. Welcome back Sally. Thank you. Good on you Sally for being authentic and engaging in ugly stereotypes. Yeah, it’s a challenge there Melina. I think it’s one of those ones [sic] and this is going to link into another of the segments I’m going to talk about, Netflix is producing great content. Yes, I have to say I’m a vicarious Netflix watcher of all sorts of things. My housemates have the account, I finally got a digital TV last November, I was using a 1986 tube TV for 34 years or 33 or something, and finally I’ve updated my technology and I’ve finally sub accounted on their Netflix, and I’m now beginning to watch more, but there’s lots of good content and got to give a recommendation for one which has great queer and kink content and that’s Babylon Berlin, which is really awesome. See it right up there with Netflix. Also just been watching Line of Duty, which is a very typically good British drama not so much queer, but certainly very inclusive and you ask why aren’t we seeing this in our own media? Well, this is a good point and I think that maybe we do need an Australian version for example of disclosure, you know, maybe we could get a license from the producers and directors of the American one to do our own version. You’ve recommended a TV series Pose which is broken down barriers with trans activists who are also actors in the show. And yeah, I’ve got to give [sic] over the last few months forgot to mention the fabulous Georgie Stone playing Harrison McKenzie and Neighbours. It’s been a couple of queer themed episodes of Pride party with two characters are sis woman enters hits man in drag being good sports in a cameo by Courtney Act. And then also one where Georgie wrote the script for a hurt you

Where she assisted a parent struggling he was struggling to come to understand the truth having a trans child and that was part of the show. So, yep young children need to see themselves reflected in popular culture. Even if it can be will be too shallow and entertaining. Well, I’m not saying George. She’s I think that’s really well done. I don’t I have to admit. I don’t know pose as a Sony just broken into Netflix who says I’m not up to date with technology. You can and you’re quite right seriously is really important.

So really important here is the segment which I’m sorry also have got just before I go on to something else. What do you give a thank you to Molina for alerting me to something good that happened during the week. We need a bit of that because I’ve got some tough issues to deal with today, but they as a say they do need to be dealt with and that’s valentinus em, I hope sampaio whose

The first transform to be on the cover of Sports Illustrated so slowly breaking new ground and good to have roving reporter listening in as well. Who’s loving the show as well. So great to have you both back listening live and oh, it’s all happening. Okay, Lena has just message me and and I’m going to just hold this message for a bit just because I want to

Think through it a bit hard to say when you will find out where we are because it probably will need a Content warning as well. So the story I wanted to talk about today is one that hasn’t as I said received a lot of culture which I quite find coverage particularly in Australia since and I find that a bit worrying and you can read an article on, which is the biggest article on it called protocol Butch by a mead is d y e SS and

The here’s where I’ll really raise the content warning overall for this segment. It’s the story of how I was recruited into the gender critical movement. What key players I worked with and how I left. Well, first of all good on you that you got out and say Yes, certainly raise the content here for Content warning here and for gentle transphobia and we’ll say emotional abuse and I mean has said at the start it’s a public interest story. I own all the rights to the messages that appear, but all the same I blacked out names from the actual images so I can

In this article and I me goes on to Sam or whistleblower has been publicly accused of lying and Madness by powerful gender critical woman, and I have the right to present my evidence. The story has been altered to comply with mediums rules, but the original version is archived and available online for journalists in the public. Wow, so Pride 2018, you know, it was marked as marketers lesbian rights to lgbti people.

Apple gender criticals GCS critical of how trans rights impact Women rights, but the certain I’m Amy Says quote unquote. The reality is no one has brought anything to the table that isn’t based in bigotry and quote, you know manipulate goes on to say how GCS is fear mongering and misrepresentations to manipulate us into believing lesbians were under attack and the greater good that our own Greater Community was silence in a raising as well. I disagree with that.

Non-stop criticism of the left postmodern queer culture and lgbtq+ as it’s an American article Publications constant triggering and then she says now I realize we were being used as Pawns in a culture War quote unquote. The goal was to divide our community. She reviewed approximately 30,000 screenshot. She took her time in the GC movement and emotionally difficult task. Well, you’ll get every agreement from trans people on that. I think Amy

She says today, I see the propaganda for what it is. But back then my living situation was unstable. She had to Auto camp sleep in my vehicle to make ends meet and had recently had a window broken while showering at the gym meals were inconsistent city was tired. So she was vulnerable to GC fear. Now, that’s a really good point. This is what in general these sorts of types of organizations do when they have a rigid ideologically ideology that can be emotionally blocked. They take advantage of other people who are emotionally

Honorable, so she Amy said Ties on about how she was looking for work. And then she says that some lesbians have been called turfs trans exclusionary radical feminists simply for being gay. Well, I don’t know about that. That is a name that’s used by someone will not use it. I’m a believer that everyone has a right to be referred to by their own label and if the

Particular group want to call themself radical feminists. So be it and she does compare this to an Evangelical upbringing and you know, sort of we’ve been told was being gay and it was a bad choice and she’s then you can sort of making comparisons and and she then says quote the reason I and other lgbtq+ people ever supported GCSE and groups like The LGB Alliance the mysterious

Healthy balance. We’re here where people don’t seem to name themselves for publicly identify themself. Well, if you’re so courageous and fighting back, why can’t you do that? Well, she says the reason she ever supported these sorts of groups because she was told it was not okay to be gay. Now. We had a terrible situation earlier this year in Australia on this so very very true that that is what can happen and

So thankfully has seen through this. It’s a very very long article and gender critics find what makes you angry and then get on board with more of their ideas. Well, let’s just take it change the word angry to another emotion fearful or something. Look at the fear that fundamentalist Christians. Whip up in relation to the bathroom debate. And remember that there is an absolute quote where one fundamentalist Christian group has set out right that it was a concoction. They fabricated to whip up emotion. So let’s try to look at the issues calmly and I’m going to go and I’m going to link that into the next segment then radical feminists and after Ellen had influenced Amy, and now she knows it was most likely she names the person. I’m only quoting the article Jocelyn McDonald’s influence as assistant editor. She’s a robot. Jocelyn is a radical feminist who supports wolf women’s Liberation Front, but it’s an organization that claims to be fair.

This but works with far-right groups who are going to women and LGBT rights. Wow, I’m not surprised and I know there’s a trans person who I might get on the show to who analyzes this. I won’t I’m that person without their consent. Although they probably know who they are just to be safe. She was recruited. Amy was recruited by someone else and then when Amy was recruited by someone else see love bombed me and constantly send me upsetting social media.

It’s to keep me triggered riped several women into a media wall. Wow, criticized good lgbtiq Publications such as pink news Auto straddle and others. So on it goes and it’s interesting that the editor-in-chief of after L and has recently stepped down after Amy has published her allegation. So this is incredibly courageous to bring all this out and she goes on to talk about with

Owens Liberation Front and the he then goes on to say that many of the women who involved in a story who she’s making her claims about have chosen to openly mock me instead of coming out to support me and be are quite some of the messages but without names there are pictures of them on this article and there’s many other things where she goes on about this in some detail.

And yeah sort of and also lots of other propaganda that she puts here that I won’t mention. I’ll definitely say be in a good frame of mind have supports if you’re someone who’s a bit vulnerable and wants to read this. But again, I know I need the real sis allies to read this as well. And so there’s a lot of evidence given on this and on it goes and

And so G then criticizes a well-known also say UK feminist. You can read the article. I’m going to play safe for the my sake and the sake of 3CR and not mention it but probably people will know who I mean, so she met up with people from the LGB Alliance, which is interesting and then she got criticized and then she began to realize what

Came now this well-known UK feminist called a me delusional intact are integrity and mental health and gas-lit me tried to claim. We would never connected even though there’s tweets here. She has the right to so since he’s publicly challenged me prove been the person is lying and being abusive towards me. So there’s plenty of evidence you this is, you know, very unintended it’s almost like the best undercover investigation we could get

It and so she has realized the error of her ways now. I I think I could go on but I think that’s more than enough, you know sort of, you know, she’s also good work. I hear Amy she ends by saying I’ve been challenging myself talking to a lot of people and trans Community some topics. I won’t talk about yes debt since way. I haven’t had time to properly research them very good. You know, I think that, you know to be an ally you need to be informed you can have some broad brushstroke.

Sybil’s of walking beside people that sort of thing but really really important and she also says quite compassionately in my opinion quite I hope to the gender critical types who are reading this quote. I hope you pay attention to the red flags. You’ve been seeing and find your way out. It’s okay to talk about concerns with empathy. If you have a friend trying to take care help you get out take that hand because that’s love we can stop our real opponents together very courageous stuff and you

Can look for a me on Twitter. I just think that’s incredibly courageous to speak out against these sorts of powerful intimidated timid a tree. Oh, I better say to be fair. Allegedly Intimidator e types of behave people and their behaviors. So really well done to Amy for doing that. Welcome your thoughts as I’ll play another track and we’ll have a have a listen in the meantime had another message.

From roving reporter Melina is right about pose. It’s a fantastic series good to be back in touch with you roving. Billy Porter is wonderful, and he did a great song with the cast recently on YouTube. So yes, I need to get up to date with my technology and find these things. So yeah really good to see so welcome your thoughts on this and I’ll have a good read of cut lines message that I just wanted to check in through first whilst we have a listen to another track.

If I can hopefully have it loaded up correctly. It is the church and a classic because we are all under the Milky Way 3CR C R8 V 5A m3c our Digital 3CR Dot org dot EU and 3CR On Demand Out of the Pan with Sally that is not the church as much as we love the angels. I knew I was having one of those days live radio. It’s good to have it back.

And we’ll keep rolling along. So yeah, please love welcome your interaction great to have the crew in or connecting in with me today. But and you thank you to those who I’ll say Brave to that segment not easy content. Anyway, here we go. Now with the church 3CR 855Am, 3CR digital 3CR dot  3CR our on-demand Out of the Pan with Sally.

Church under the Milky Way

3CR, 8 5 5Am 3c R, digital 3CR dot org dot AU and 3CR on-demand Out of the Pan with Sally first broadcasting noon To one every Sunday afternoon. Thanks for your company. We just heard from the church from Under the Milky Way from a 2-cd set put your glasses on Sally and pull the right CD out of the case when you’re playing it anyway and a bonus bit of the Angels take a long line as well live radio. It’s good to have it back look just for a little and just the other two songs were played today are Rosy bird just Trio and stack hat and also,

We heard the start of the show from the Hoodoo Gurus Leilani and Kayleen has acknowledged great songs and said important show and also Melina said hi to roving reporter. See this is community radio in action live. I love it. Now. I wanted to talk about what Caitlyn said having a chance to read and I will say I’m pretty high content warning here in relation to what I was mentioning about Crocodile Dundee. I’ll read this out sort of in words.

And as written someone close to me that Kayleen don’t want to go into detail reader connection is ex-army and wound up going into a pub in drag to try to help catch a rapist caught by others won’t say what nation this was in and was groped as the character in Crocodile Dundee was he was laughing about it when telling me about it is one of his War Stories. He still has scars from the injuries when I quietly mentioned that I Kayleen said mentioned that I that was one of the reasons I don’t go to pubs and he was shocked into silence but has been extremely supportive since you can mention this on air if you wish also for the show Caitlin says quote unquote perhaps I mentioned that I have had personal experiences similar to the sexual assault in Crocodile Dundee. So I know so I’m really genuinely obviously saddened to hear that and I can say that I’ve had another one. It was actually at a now defunct. I would hasten to add gay venue from the late 90s early 2000s not far from the three C R Studios on Peel Street but no not I’d better say not the peel. Although I had actually have had someone put my hand there hand on my leg there without consent but that was you know, it’s sad that we have to try to minimize their experiences of these things in that way. But yeah, I’ve had that happen as well and worse.

 So this is one of those coincidences that when I plan to show where I get to the third segment, there’s been a lot of talk in the last few weeks and then about I will just say an author someone who’s very well known and very prominent. I don’t real I’m not going to give that author’s name because they’ve got enough publicity. But in the last week, this is where it all ties in together anyone to think this show is planned and once in a while you’d be right. There’s been all this talk about that author and others talking about cancel culture and it’s interesting to see articles in the conversation in the opinion comments of today’s age and also quite a well-known liberal  politician who is relevant in a way to this show has come out supporting the letter criticizing cancel culture. Well, first of all can someone Define cancel culture and let’s also defined social engineering and politically correct and all the rest of it. Yeah. There’s got to be, you know, people talk about freedom of speech we hear a lot about Freedom. The other side of the coin is responsibility. I was brought up risk of sounding like a old chook in a pansexual.

Seriously, I was brought up with the idea of take responsibility for your choices. Think about the consequences of your actions. And when freedom and responsibility are in roughly equal balance is where we get the best results and if people were taking responsibility, maybe we’d actually we’d rather not have hate speech or we’d have talked about issues in ways that are hopefully in good process and this is where I take issue with the emotive, but largely meaningless term that is cancel culture.

Er so what we’re saying is trans people shouldn’t stand up for ourselves. Is that what we’re saying by cancel culture? We don’t have a right to have our own opinions. I was once criticized by a prominent ex AFL player after listening to that person’s garbage for you saying, okay, let them have an opinion but don’t give them any publicity and I think it comes to that point with some individuals, you know, we all make slips on all sorts of issues. We have unconscious bias or we make honest mistakes. We can’t know everything about everything when it comes to anything including aspects of diversity and what do we do? We learn from it a few weeks ago. I had the pleasure of being online with a seminar an education session hosted by Jess Mattar and Jax Jackie Brown from Drummond Street Services. Of course, they do other great things in the community. I’d well been aware of for a long time the idea when it comes to diversity of being curious and open to learning and they said took it further and say be curious not Furious.

I really like that approach if someone says hey have you stopped and thought about what you’re saying don’t have a hissy fit try to learn and do better. That’s how I would have thought growth was the human condition. So so I think that’s where we need to go. Now. It’s all very well. Sometimes we hear another cliche which is sort of…Sorry just being distracted that I need to top up the SMS. Sorry roving. I’m hopefully we’ve got enough to get through today. And roving has said pose is a fantastic show. But seriously, I’ve totally lost my train of thought that’s live radio, but I’m going to do it this way, you know, it’s all very well to talk about cancel culture and freedom, but also we sometimes he cliches. Oh, that’s right about we need to debate these issues.

Who’s debating with whom and what and how you know when fabrications like bathroom debates and made up and then we’re told we have to debate them and we can’t put the issue safe for Trans people on the map. What are the real issues? We face having documentation that reflects who we are quality healthcare in both generalist and specialized ways the huge out-of-pocket including say the huge out-of-pocket costs for strands surgeries in Australia that for both assigned male and assigned female.

You know, it’s all very well to for someone else to define the debate. What about the issues like in terms of process? Like when trans issues are discussed on a certain Monday night television show and there’s no trans people. There’s only fundamentalist Christians and radical feminists or there’s one chance person who is swamped or we’re constantly having to be interrogated for our views, but the views of those who would disagree with this. I’m not interrogated. So these simplistic sloganss like cancel culture need to be called out and you know, we need to have good process for these debates and take responsibility. And I think that when people take responsibility something good happens. We stop worrying about the right to an opinion and we start worrying about which opinions are right and that’s what really matters and it is time that we did more of that than you know, sort of having these meaningless abstract debates about the right to an opinion. So got it. I have to say that because I’m just I have to say as a longtime advocate for 25 years since I’ve been out the same old issues come up they’re all baseless. And then when do we get a chance to do this? Well, as I have been approached in doing some media about some that author I’ve said well, I’ve said to the media who interviewed me and you know, thank them for the opportunity. I said can we stay in touch so we can proactively put our issues on board and I’d say to any ends person if we are lucky I almost have to say sarcastically if we’re lucky enough to be approached about these issues then then let’s say hey media do something balancing. I’ll give credit where it’s due. There’s been a lot of criticism of the Guardian in the UK specifically for not covering trans issues will finally they’ve given a an opinion piece and there’s no comments allowed on it to a trans person and that’s the first I’ve seen that in a long time and thinking

Of the interview I’ve had played twice this year with c n Lester. I know that they have had those issues. So maybe at least there’s a bit of balance coming back in. All right shows just about running out of time got one of them bit more to cover. So just have a quick couple of quick messages and then come back for the last track and wrap it all up 3CR C R8 55 M 3 C R digital 3CR dot-org w3c our on-demand Out of the Pan with Sally.

Words app freedom of species has hit the airwaves tune in for debates and updates on both local and international animal protection news and events and learn about how you can live a cruelty-free sustainable lifestyle.

News views and non-leather shoes. That’s freedom of species 1:00 p.m. Sundays on 3CR.

Authorised by the last few remaining kangaroos Canberra

Looking for an easy way to keep up with your annual 3CR subscription. You can now set up an annual debit from your bank account or credit card and once a year your payment will be automatically deducted you can cancel at any time and you’ll get a reminder each year before payment be a constant supporter of Melbourne’s precious Independent Community radio station and set up a recurring payment today.

Just go to three W. /o subscribe.

Just got a couple of minutes left on the show on 3CR 855AM our Digital 3 w3CRc our on-demand Out of the Pan along with Sally and that’s Dimension that on Thursday night. I went to a zoo as you do in this day and age and had with globe for their monthly meeting Globe which originally stood for Gays and lesbians of business and Enterprise because that was the snazzy acronym we could use but is covering doing its best to expand in its diversity on Trend and declaring the interest as a bisexual Alliance committee and doubly declaring the interest as Treasurer yours truly was along with praise and vice-president Rebecca and James Globe granted a small Grant to bisexual Alliance Victoria for the to redevelop our website which needs a bit of an update and a

Amp and a take to and all that sort of thing. So well, thank you globe and alsoTranscend and Out for Australia got were organizations that got Awards, which is really cool and lots of other good individuals check out Globe Melbourne. So thank you very much great networking using the breakout rooms as we do in this day and age and also had some musical stuff fun. And that’s where I’m going to close the show today just because we have been a little heavy.

Let’s lighten it up the Tuck Shop. Ladies, who are Rosy Burgess from The Rosy Burgess Trio who we had earlier and Sam Lows who used to be in Fruit two, wonderful women musician musicians, and actually I’ve assumed their gender identity. I don’t know how they identify but certainly a part of will say the I’ll say the women and or queer music scene in Melbourne. So really good to see that very quickly had messages in roving as I said, not that certain person again, I’m not going to mention their name.

And roving says quote. I think it’s an excuse to be a self-indulgent middle-class white gay male man who wants to maintain it being a career as politician. It’s also about not recognizing our own privilege status as well in I’m going to agree with that. Let’s face it. Yes, and Kayleen has also given me a here here for the last segment also mentioned great songs and an important show think you and thanks Melina.

Yes, we’re just going to get to you as we click seeing a lot of Millennials supportive on trans issues to special on podcast with younger queer people of my generation. How do you think mental health will impact our community during this lockdown? That’s a show in itself. I’d better leave that for another time. There is plenty going on on that. Don’t forget trans demick the podcast the Australian made one that looks at trans issues. Am I being used as the token trans person know there’s been a range of good commentary Hayden Moon a Sydney based young trans person got a good piece in this week as well. And yes friend of that author who was trans from the IPA. Where are they now? Will we don’t I don’t know I’ll research that during the week. Anyway better get out of here and just play a couple of minutes of the fun. That is the Tuck Shop ladies. Thanks for tuning in. Thanks Molina kaeleen and roving for your contributions during the show this week. Great to be with you again live. I’m Sally goldner. Catch you next week.

Song lyrics

People of the world one time maybe two times. I’d like to put my cell phone in your glove box if you know what I mean. Do you know what I mean? I’d like to put my spanner in it’ll walk if you know what I mean. Do you know what I mean? It’s you fuck isn’t you fuck isn’t you fuck is mmm

What are they talking about? I know I’d like to put my 20 in your coins lock if you know what I mean. Do you know what I mean? I’d like to put my light on you superpose two groups can be here if you know what I mean. I hope you know what I mean. It’s you fuck you. Fuck you fuck.

I’d like to put my rub into your except if you know what I mean. Do you know what I mean? I’d like to put my saddle on your horse back if you know what I mean. I think you know what I mean.

Bye bye teenies, hallo twenties

1 Jan , 2020  

It has taken time and effort to put together my change of year/decade summary this year for many reasons, the obvious being the unnecessary extent of the bushfire tragedy in this country. As a deep feeling empathic person, I am moved by the tragedy. After the first coffee for 2020, I’m going to try to link my little 7 billionth of the world to the proverbial whole picture.

So, my year started out fab, fell, metaphorically speaking, some way down the Pacific Basin mid-year and has climbed out since.  Receiving the Order of Australia (AM – I only have to work in the mornings now) was a pretty high start. The ceremony in April was wonderful and it was great to have key people from 4 parts of my life there. It would have been good to have a 5th; I could only wear mum’s jewellery and connect with her that way. The Joe Walsh/Eagles song “Pretty Maids All in a Row” has been on high rotation for much of the year in honour of mum and granny.

Perhaps it was hard to keep up that sort of high. Trying to take on an unpaid executive management role in TGV ended with tears before bedtime due to lateral hostility from 360 degrees and bureaucratic micromanagement on many fronts. Thank you to the dear friend and colleague who bravely pointed out that I had more than cockpit warning lights flashing; I had an engine on fire. I was therefore able to stop the plane crashing. I still feel sad and frustrated to have to pull away from management at TGV for those reasons when my vision has lots to offer; all the same, it has been the best for me in terms of mental health and what I call neuro health. My training steadily returned to its sharpest in the latter 4 months of the year and I feel more grounded overall. I’ll just say “watch this space” re some of this…

I want to thank again Nevo Zisin, my mental health professional, Tina Healey and City of Darebin for being catalysts to improved fitness and exercise. My swimming is now steadily at 20×50 metre laps (1 km) of breaststroke twice a week.  I think this helped in my changing to a healthy fluid intake i.e. leaving soft drink behind over a year ago. I’m no Rhea Ripley but feel much happier doing this exercise – this is MY brutality 😊 (put Rhea Ripley theme in your search engine to understand that one).

Talking sports entertainment, thanks to Chris Wallis for shouting me a ticket to NJPW in June at Festival Hall, Melbourne’s spiritual epicentre of wrestling. Will Ospreay v Robbie Eagles was 41 minutes of total made magic for wrestling tragics (like me) and deserved every milligram of the energy given by the standing ovation. And as always it was good to see WWE in October with Nic “Zigs” Wishart and that benign chairman of the Ref Bump, Evan Thompson.

Beyond training there were 2 big stand-outs in my own work. Presenting my “extended dance mix” personal story at (of all places) the Outdoors Victoria conference was a total delight (thank you organisers for everything especially the free coffee before my opening the day on the Saturday morning). At day’s end was where met Shawn Andrews, one of this earth’s beautiful souls and a true striver for social justice. I later had the pleasure of meeting his beautiful family. The other stand-out was presenting at the Manningham Uniting Church Building Bridges event in October. Hearing so many personal stories across newly arrived, Aboriginal, LGBTIQ I was struck by a common theme: damaged and disrupted childhoods. Come on, human race, we can surely do better.

I also met this year Jacqui Pillar au and James Williams, both of whom are also beautiful social justice souls. Pepper is a wonderful 4-legged justice soul.

In December I went to cultural awareness training run by VACCA Victorian Aboriginal Child Care Agency. No, one day of training does not make me an instant perfect ally. However, to hear more deeply of the history of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples – and more importantly that some of the actions against Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples are still ongoing was deeply emotional. I aim to channel that emotion into something positive somewhere, somehow.

It was fab to finally get some better birth certificate laws on the books in Victoria and so convincingly in the end. Along with our siblings in Tasmania also achieving great reforms (and the Northern Territory in late 2018) these were much needed wins. Congrats also goes to the Northern Territory for achieving decriminalisation of sex work law reform this year. We need these beacons given the irrational attitudes that seem and often are so loud and shrill in these times.

Looking back at the decade, my mental and physical health improved, my finances improved (I am debt-free) my self-esteem improved thanks to wonderful people and my enjoyment of paid work improved. My living arrangements remained stable (thanks to human and 4-legged critters). But that is my 1 little 7 billionth of the world.

That leads to the bigger picture. I don’t have a whole strategic plan with goals actions and KPIs (old accountants never die, right) for social, environmental and climate justice and common sense. I totally affirm the feelings of despair, frustration, anger and maybe helplessness (and others) that people are feeling on these issues. I feel the frustration when people with titles of POTUS and Australian PM are effectively sticking their fingers in their ears and going “la la la” at so many people on so many issues. I have only had only one intuitive moment on this: let us focus on the better world we want to create rather than the negatives what we want to eliminate. Take that as you will.

Last of all my resolution for 2020: to continue to increase my inner peace and contentment across all of my life including how I do my social justice. I believe for me that is how I will reconcile (more accounting) my place in the world with that whole picture. I don’t know the detail of that today and I’m cool with that – far worse things than a bit of uncertainty.  I will keep moving forward to make it happen and see what happens.

Wishing people of all genders peace and strength and have yourselves a roaring twenties.

PS will be doing some other sorts of writing for the next 3weeks. 😊

Where next for the rainbow on Australian commercial television?

23 Apr , 2019  

Where next for the rainbow on Australian commercial television?


I don’t watch much television (the WWE network keeps me well occupied in my spare time 😊). Occasionally, however, all humans and some/all 4-legged critters at our place gather around the box while dining and watch what is on offer and for the last 10-14 weeks or so that has, on occasions, included “Dancing with the Stars.”
Now as someone who was thrown out of the Peter Garrett dance academy in the 1980s, I’m sure as heck not going to comment who was best placed to win.


I want to focus on Courtney Act (who ended the season as runner-up). Courtney has certainly pushed up rainbow positivity through the run on this season’s show. I’m not aware of any homo/transphobia from the show (although I saw an idiotic comment on Gogglebox from someone watching the show). I think it’s been pretty good overall.


Thing is, where next? When I watch the vocal type of reality TV shows, in around 90% of cases the males do songs where a male sang lead (either solo or in a band) and 90% of females doing songs sung by females. Further, it’s a pretty cis-gender-hetero-normative approach re song choice e.g. blokes doing Barnesy and females doing Rhianna etc This percentage applies whether the singers are citizens e.g. The Voice or celebs (there was the show a while back where a celeb was paired with a top singer called “It Takes Two.”). The pairs overwhelmingly appeared as cis-het doing cis-het songs.


So, there’s the next frontier post-Courtney. I’ll throw a hypothetical out there. Let’s say someone in the mould of the late Chrissie Amphlett (Divinyls, bless her memory) went on one of these shows today. I wonder if she would get more than 15 seconds at audition. Would a female-identifying person, cis or trans, go forward if she turned up in low-cut frock and heels – and covered AC/DC in a natural voice at the lower end of the vocal range? Or male identified in a higher voice range in plaid shirt singing to Spice Girls? And a non-binary person?


Food for thought. I’m off to find my karaoke backing tracks of Guns’n’Roses “Paradise City” and Iron Maiden’s “Number of the Beast.” Well, tomorrow morning anyway…


, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

Honours Award

26 Jan , 2019  

It is with a huge mix of emotions – all the feelz – that I announce, to borrow words from Chris Jericho, that “I just made the list.”

Or to use an old gag, “I only have to work in the mornings – AM – now.”

What do I mean? I’ve been recognised as a Member (AM) in the General Division of the Order of Australia (AM) for my community contributions.


Holy rainbow and community media diversity Batpan!

First and foremost: a ginormous thank you to the true, dear beautiful friends who have, with compassion and wisdom, unconditionally stood by me over the years, especially when times were not so good. I also thank the range of health professionals who helped my life move in the right direction when times were darker. Further, to the person/s who put my name forward for the medal – whoever you are – thank you for your effort and kindness in doing that. You are all #goodhumans.

I feel incredibly excited for those who identify as any of bi/multi-gender attracted, trans/gender diverse (TGD) and family members of TGD. This is for all of you, everywhere on this planet. For too long we’ve experienced situations such as denial, invisibility, ridicule, rejection and treatment that simply isn’t equal nor respectful. I acknowledge those who came forward before me (trioneers and bioneers) with courage and vision so I had places with which to connect. I feel in my heart, that, in Australia, our resilience and creativity is moving us forward. I am acutely aware of the challenges for TGD in other countries around the world; I deeply hope this can send some rainbow energies further.

I’m very chuffed to see virtually all parts of community contribution recognised. I am proud of my contributions to all of the organisations listed (and more). I value my contributions to community media, yet sometimes believe they have received less affirmation. Who’d have thought I could get an award for doing puns, playing classic rock and music of both binary kinds – country AND western? Well, it’s possible! Thanks to co-presenters on radio and who endured the puns and musical, er, …influences and to all the playas in the community media spaces with whom I’ve worked closely.

My rainbow community involvement has, however, not been without its challenges. For me, the biggest challenge, sadly, is that some prominent and influential people (and the dominant culture re some self-proclaimed diverse rainbow organisations) that claim to be guided by values such as diversity, inclusion and respect have exhibited double standards (often called lateral hostility). The behaviours that actually happen mean these people and organisations do not walk their talk re respect on a day-to-day basis in how they operate, their aims or both. While every human cannot know everything, including re diversity and will make mistakes, to flatly refuse to communicate or change course when approached by people with the lived expertise is simply no longer acceptable. I can say, however, say watch this space for a positive and proactive plan to accelerate positive change in this area.

I do need to say re “all the feelz:” I’m still finding this award to be a bit surreal. I just set out to be myself, follow my heart and do what I felt in my gut was my life’s mission. I’ve faced challenges regarding my gender identity as a trans woman. I’ve faced prejudice from various directions in relation to my sexual orientation as bi/pansexual. I needed to find out about the lesser-known cyclothymia and learn self-management of that health variation. I’ve had parts of my neuroprocessing (introversion and Highly Sensitive Person ( devalued. I needed to first claim these parts of my soul, then learn to use these gifts productively for what they are. I ended up facing bits of stuff as a person I didn’t even know were buried deep down until the demons popped up their heads. I have unloaded much of my excess psychological baggage and hopefully now have got it down to a small carry-on backpack 😊.  In all of those journeys through the metaphorical dark underground passages, I never in my wildest hopes thought something like this could happen. I can only say to people that when life seems troubled, there is a way out to the sunlight and to keep some momentum going in the journey towards it.

All the same, there is a moment of personal sadness on this day. My mum, who died last August, is not here to share the moment in person. I can imagine the huge smile lighting up her face and the great level of excitement in her voice on sharing this news, but will only be able to imagine it rather than have it in real life. I will have to make do with a very long-distance clinking of glasses between me in Melbourne, family interstate and mum (and Granny) having a nip of Vermouth in the great place for excellent souls.

There is also definitely another factor that needs recognition on this day. 26th January is overwhelmingly not a positive day for our original inhabitants. I note an increasing number of the broader Australian population, while not being part of the indigenous communities, show compassion and empathy for the journey of our original inhabitants. I firmly believe Australia needs genuine intent to find ways for us all to truly celebrate as a nation including fully valuing our indigenous people. We need a process to achieve that aim in ways that are respectful and mature rather than involving sensationalism, hype and fabricated emotion. I don’t know exactly what that answer looks like; I know we won’t find it answers if questions are not asked in the first place.

I do not exactly what my future holds (who does?). I know I would like it to simply involve that I keep doing what I’m doing and going where I’m going and do more of it. There is obviously more to be done. I want dreams to turn into reality. And to finish where I started, I quote WWE Hall of Famer Beth Phoenix, “… if you ever feel like a square peg trying to fit into a round hole, if you ever feel like you don’t fit the mould that is because you weren’t meant to. You are meant for greater things. Don’t try to be something or someone you aren’t, embrace what makes you different and be accepting of what makes others different because that is how dreams become reality.”

And that’s the bottom line, cos @salgoldsaidso

, , , , , , ,

Trans Day of Remembrance 2018

20 Nov , 2018  

Today is Transgender Day of Remembrance. #tdor

I acknowledge trans and gender diverse people have the same potential to contribute to society and economy as the broader population, are creative and lateral thinking generally, have great insight specifically into gender and therefore can assist in issues relating to gender such as #metoo and achieving 100% respect for women, every face, every place.

I say that on this day, not to deny or un-affirm the Trans Day of Remembrance. I say it to highlight the travesty of the loss. The huge contrast of people being murdered just because they of who they are when they had lives to live, dreams to realise and loved ones who cared highlights why we will always need to honour this day and make sure we get to a 20 November one year where no more names are added to those we have already lost.

I acknowledge the huge issues of intersectionality including with people of colour, newly arrived, TGD people in the sex industry to name but a few. I ask with humility how I can be a better ally to those TGD people with intersections beyond my own sense of identity and how we can work together more effectively to achieve more social justice and equity for all within the TGD community.

I ask on this day that trans and gender diverse people come together in strength and solidarity with our supportive families, partners and loved ones. I ask for existing allies to re-affirm that they are right next to us through good and bad and for new allies to learn and come on board. I ask for all allies to always consult with us on any point because we can offer the lived expertise to result in better win-win outcomes. We can get to that particular 20 November where there are no more names added more quickly and effectively when we are together in true equality and creating win-win solutions.

Our love and compassion will hold strong and we will achieve our aims. Peace and strength on this day.

, , ,

It was one year ago today

15 Nov , 2018  

So, 365 days ago, I woke up with much anxiety – yes, it is a year since the announcement of the postal survey.

I am happy for those who now have had their marriages that they could not previously have. I am happy for those who have had previously unrecognised marriages recognised. I remember when I received my passport that had an “F” 3 years ago and how that outside validation affirmed my inner validation of my being part of our communities. Now couples other than male or female are equally externally validated and their love is recognised – a very good thing.

All the same, I cannot celebrate this day. I am still reminded of the pain of my direct communities of identity, trans and bi, being sold out. I am reminded of those beyond my identity (multicultural, people of faith, people of colour, intersex for starters) who when I listen to them, say they have felt the same.

Note that word: listen.

We have an increasing crisis of how we do leadership in our communities where so many so-called leaders won’t listen in so many ways.

None of the so-called leaders who threw so many other people under the bus have changed their approach in the last 12 months. The power-players, careerists, pragmatists are still going about things the same way. Pragmatism always trashes the most vulnerable. (For pragmatism read lazy, brain-dead and gutless). Real leaders in social justice settings aim to level the playing field rather than keep the mountain steep and treacherous for the most marginalised to climb. They don’t think they have to listen to those marginalised voices when they are the ones crying out most loudly.

Re this one, I again acknowledge Rodney Croome as the only person with the integrity, self-honesty, authenticity and humility to admit the throwing people under the bus was wrong. As stated previously, I’ve had my differences with Rodney over the years; I also state strongly he has one thing that the sell-outs don’t have. I see the ability to connect to his heart and work in conjunction with his mind. I say the self-rationalising manipulative minds need to learn about listening to their hearts and we might start to get somewhere.

I still experience the same hypocrisy of lateral hostility, for example when non-bi types think they can dictate what goes into the bi section in an election wishlist and I have to fight like hell to get bi even mentioned at all. That they think they don’t have to listen to bi people when they are not bi or bi-specialist organisations is the depth of hypocrisy, yet some of these people really believe they are allies. Some write up bi policy papers and don’t even consult bi people – and get it very wrong. Seriously…

Before people say “bi and trans need to break away” – I say no. How come? Most of these so-called leaders are not listening to the grass roots of their own communities. I overwhelmingly meet cis gays and lesbians who want truly diverse and intersectional representation and quality leadership. I often think if the LGBTI leadership was one properly resourced organisation with clear values and a funded human resources department, most so-called leaders wouldn’t last 12 months before they had received 3 warnings on bullying and discrimination and then heard the words of Mr McMahon… “You’re fired!” While we need to work together, the problem with phrases like that is that they don’t talk about HOW we work together. So, let’s say: we work together with processes based on respect, equality, professionalism and always aiming for win-win solutions.

We have celebrity activists who think because they repeatedly post on social media that makes them leaders – no. To them I say learn to listen to your consciences, get some substance underneath yourselves, do some personal and professional development or get a job in marketing. Publicity for the sake of publicity is not leadership no matter what 21st century culture makes us believe.

I know many of those who fall short have had people talk to them in an effort to “call in.” I can sense strongly we are at a breaking point where we might start need to “call out.” Our communities will not achieve full equality while we continue to ignore elephants in the room – elephants that are crapping big time out one end and trumpeting loudly out the other. We cannot build on cracked foundations any longer and paper over cracks in the walls. It’s time for a re-blocking.

I look forward to people putting on their rainbow overalls and doing the reblocking with me.

See also

, , , , , , , ,

Saturday reflection: “who’s in charge here?”

2 Jun , 2018  

So says Krusty the Clown’s father Rabbi Hymen Krustofsky (did you read that to yourself in his accent?) in the classic early “Simpsons” episode “Like Father, Like Clown.” Seriously, it’s a really important question when dealing with issues faced by discriminated-against groups in society and how to be an ally.


The AFLW is a good case in point. While the gist of the initiative is well and good and is getting (cisgender) women playing at a higher level than before, the idea has been and is being framed from a men’s perspective. The AFLW faces (unjustified) criticism because it’s “not the same” as the men’s style of playing. Male coaches now dominate womens’ teams. The male dominated AFL can’t look at their own unconscious bias as per the inadequacy of trans woman Hannah Mouncey’s treatment. It’s what happens when you don’t put the people in question in charge of their own destiny.


Interestingly, the late Trevor Grant, made similar comments on 3 CR on his show “What’s the Score, Sport?” re indigenous inclusion a few years ago. It’s all very well to have indigenous players; where are the indigenous coaches, administrators and board members?


I recently heard of an organisation that ran a panel discussion to promote trans and gender diverse issues. The cisgender facilitator apparently framed questions from her own point of reference meaning the trans people had to work harder to make their points. In positive contrast, (declaring any interest), as a trans person I had the joy of facilitating a panel of 3 trans and gender diverse people on a panel discussion earlier this year. Trans and gender diverse voices spoke about what we wanted and needed to say, rather than being reactive to tired old fictitious cisgender concerns. In plain language, the panel rocked it.


Similarly, who plays trans people in films, TV etc – and of course, trans people are best at playing trans people. We know there are scores of good TGD actors clamouring for work. Problem is, if the casting director and the script writer doesn’t look beyond their idea of what trans is and fail to empathise strongly with our needs, they can and most likely will cast the wrong performer.


In the same way, there is finally an increased focus on bisexual issues. Sadly, too many know-it-alls are rushing in without consulting bi people. I recently heard of someone who presented to a policy forum and said there were no differences between the needs of gays and lesbians compared to the needs of bisexuals. Seriously? I don’t know one bisexual who would agree with that. Did the presenter consult and listen – obviously not.


There’s lots of ideas on what makes a good ally. For me, it’s about asking people from the relevant group two questions. They are “what would you like us to do and what would you like us NOT to do?” Part of that means an ally needs to be humble. A true ally might need to put their ego aside, listen and learn. A true ally might need to share power and privilege rather than forcing their version of it onto other people.


And most of all, a true ally needs to let go of control and might not “be in charge here.” Remember the end of The Simpsons episode – the once-controlling Rabbi Krustofsky lovingly embraced Krusty as an equal. That’s a pretty good image to hold in mind. Go with it.

, , , , , ,

Trans Day of Visibility 2018

31 Mar , 2018  

Happy Trans Day of Visibility to all trans and gender diverse people and families.

As I like to call this day, it is trans awesomeness day – because trans and gender diverse people are awesome. The amazing IT genius of Lynn Conway, the wisdom of Patrick Califia and the ability to communicate of Nevo Zesin are just 3 random of examples of awesomeness.

We are awesome that in a world that is locked into a deep chasm of binary thinking that we increasingly find ways to find the keys and unlock that door and be our authentic selves. We don’t have to be prominent or well-known like the 3 people above; just being ourselves is a triumph.

On this day I wish to thank those who support us, being supportive family members and allies generally. We need your support. We see this in the world context; in the Australian context, 2016 and 2017 were incredibly tough and stressful. The debacle on so many angles that was the postal survey may have finished but the after-effects remain. We are beginning to get back on our feet as some dust settles; all the same, a hand up will be needed. Check in with us individually and collectively: ask trans and gender diverse people what we would like (and not like) to happen. Walk with us and beside us, not in front of us.

Trans and gender diverse people are vital in achieving gender equity for all, not just ourselves. In this time of #metoo, our ability to move aside the artificial barriers that binary thinking creates will be hugely beneficial for assisting cisgender people whose lives are impacted negatively by toxic masculinity. May we work together to achieve total respect in relation to all aspects of gender.

We have seen over the longer term that we are more visible. Ten years ago barely any trans and gender diverse people under 25 were visible, now they are visible 20/20. That is proof in itself that despite the challenges we are moving forward and upward. We are seeing an increase in visibility re “diversity in diversity” re multifaith, multicultural and neurodiverse trans and gender diverse people (to name but a few examples); we need total visibility in this way.

We are creative, special, resilient and unique. We are in all walks of life and all ages, all backgrounds and all cultures. We are everywhere. Our light shines increasingly brighter and it will become the clean gender energy source that powers humanity. On this day, celebrate our visibility!


Where to next for Australia’s rainbow communities? Let’s think about “how to…”

19 Nov , 2017  


(As always, opinions on this blog are my own).

Recently, I attended the Thrive symposium, a fantastic weekend of workshops on self-care for those involved in the diversity of social justice campaigns. One great workshop was a visualisation across generations where history students seven generations (say 200 years) from now are able to talk to campaigners of 2017 and ask questions like “things looked a bit cactus in 2017, what kept you going? How did you do it?” It was just the tonic (no gin) I needed after the last 3 months. And led me to think: what will rainbow community look like in 200 years’ time? How do we start getting there? What do we need to do?


WE are the generation to start the progress to give those future students the history to study.


It’s hardly rocket science to say that the whole marriage campaign, especially the last 3 months –has been difficult for most if not all of rainbow people, families and allies. Thing is, there has been an extra layer of difficulty for bi, trans and gender diverse (TGD) people and family members of TGD, especially TGD minors. (It’s also probably been there for other parts of the rainbow with which I can’t directly identify; thoughts from others who do identify with these parts of the rainbow most welcome). I communicated with many bi, trans and families over this period and heard a common theme: erasure of bi and TGD by some prominent yes campaigners made this period even more difficult. We believe the treatment was less than equal; the feelings associated with that belief range from disappointment and sadness, through frustration, rejection, betrayal and abandonment to outright anger and indignation. We have a right to those opinions and those feelings; I have sadly had mine dismissed, no matter how “well-meaning” people were in so doing.


It’s not just bi, trans and families who expressed this viewpoint. As an example, I had a great conversation at the GLOBE awards 3 weeks ago with a guy – I’m not assuming gender because his first words to me were “I am a rich white gay man. 🙂 ” Seriously, he then went on to say that he felt sad about how we continually leave people behind in our communities. He also said he worked with refugees – and that what was happening on Manus Island was a disgrace. Hear hear. So it’s reassuring to find the true allies are there. A special thank you to those who spoke publicly about this aspect of the campaign over the last 3 months. Happily, it seems some in positions of prominence and influence are aware of this issue as acknowledged at the panel discussion Thursday 16 November: Equality – no exceptions (hosted by the Victorian Gay and Lesbian Rights Lobby).

I could spend a lot of keystrokes analysing the marriage campaign; I may do that later, but not now; that’s a separate topic. I bring this up now for one reason and only one reason: it gives us a pointer for the future. In the words of George Santayana, “those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” I’m willing to leave the past in the past on one strict non-negotiable condition that the future is better – and the future begins now.


Unfortunately the past of the rainbow world often boils down to the reality that some people (I’m including organisations as well as individuals here) in positions of prominence and influence, when it boils down to it, demonstrate by their actions, that, at the rock bottom core of their beliefs is a belief that groups such as bi and trans are less than equal. We try to build a queer house and we paper over the cracks that appear as a result of building on shaky foundations. (We don’t even try to fill the cracks – that would involve using POLYfilla – and we erase polyamory as well :)). And then we wonder why the queer house falls down rather than having more rooms and more levels.


Rather than paper over the cracks we need to properly fix the foundations so this doesn’t happen EVER again – using the theme of the VGLRL panel discussion – no exceptions.


We need to start from the basis of shared values – and equality, respect and inclusivity could be part of that. The absolutely critical factor is walking the talk rather than just having nice words that are all very warm and fuzzy but are used tokenistically and inconsistently.


Before, going further, I am all for the concept of there are things that we “don’t know that we don’t know.” That includes diversity. If it’s pointed out that a statement or belief may be inappropriate re diversity, then, the same as any mistake: admit it, fix it, learn from it and prevent it happening again. I’m happy to educate and “call in” people.


What are some mistakes that happen?:

  1. Bi, trans and families are not even consulted on issues that directly affect us, or we make efforts to sit at the table and are locked out of the room.
  1. We have a seat at the table, but are treated less than equally, often in a patronising way. I was in a meeting less than 12 months months ago with a range of people discussing a TGD issue. A cisgender person said, in a horribly patronising tone “well, I’m not trans – but if I WAS trans, I’d do such-and-such.” I’m going to ask people to contact me privately if they don’t understand that.
  1. Consultation processes happen but people believe they can ignore agreements and do what they want anyway.

Like any realignment of values, it is a change process which may have its tensions. That is a tiny price to pay for a more effective community that can achieve more results. I looove the words of trans woman of colour Andrea Jenkins, elected recently to Minneapolis City Council “We don’t just want a seat at the table, we want to set the table.” I’ll take those words further: “I want a full carte blanche menu of equality and equity on which to dine.” We need to work out a common base to translate the agreed values into practical language so we can work on multiple campaigns simultaneously. The “supermarket delicatessen” approach of “take a number and wait for your human rights” – the human rights that are our birthright that were stolen from so many of us – never worked and certainly can’t work now. To name only a few groups: I am both trans and bi. I am acutely aware of the abuse still faced by people experiencing intersex and the blatant discrimination faced by those working in the sex industry. Going beyond the rainbow and into the broader community, how do we work effectively on racial respect and respect for youth?


Thing is, when we do it right, the difference is tangible. At an event at Collingwood town hall this year the process was set up well with encouragement to speak up even things may have been “unpopular”– and the difference was blatantly obvious. To quote that great Australian philosopher – Dennis Denauto from “The Castle – the “vibe” was tangible. Ideas flowed easily. When implemented lives will be saved and changed.


There would be other broader benefits: if we start it in one place, it could boost other parts of the country and go worldwide. We also shut down a line of attack from the far right (not that we need to be reactive to them, rather we do this because it benefits us) about “you lot are divided.”


Let’s do it all the time. Let’s be the generation that starts that change in November 2017. Let’s be on the right side of rainbow history  – starting now.