TRANSscript from Out of the Pan 16 August 2020


Presenter: Sally Goldner

Duration: 59min 04sec

Broadcast: Sunday, 16 August 2020 – 12:00 pm AEST

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[Eddie Mabo by Neil Murray]

Sally Goldner: 3CR 855AM, 3CR digital, and, 3CR On Demand. Out of the Pan with Sally, first broadcasting noon till 1:00 every Sunday afternoon. Thanks for your company. 3CR proudly broadcasts from the lands of the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation, and we pay respect to Elder’s past, present, and emerging; and acknowledge any Aboriginal and/ or Torres Strait Islander people listening in. And the land was stolen and never seeded. Also acknowledging that the language used in this program is more of a western or Anglo-Saxon nature, and that there have been all sorts of ways to do gender identity and gender expression on every piece of land, and sometimes on water, all over this planet since time began, and if you want to if you want to get in touch with the show, there’s lots of ways to do so. You can look for the post on Facebook on my page and Sally Gardner AM – the only band to be on – and on Out of the Pan 3CR 855 AM Melbourne; and also SMS 61456 751 215. You can tweet @salgoldsaidso; you can do it by email as well

And well, you might want to get in touch with the show today because thanks to my dear friend and mentor Kayleen White, we had a little discussion with from which an idea emerged, we’ll call this the conversation cuppa starter or something, which I’ll talk a bit more about throughout the show today – and you might want to do one of these with me and see where we go rather than just do a sane interview, which of course you’re always welcome to do – and what it was was just this idea that sometimes there can be human rights heroes, some we know about I mean, an obvious one let’s say that might be Eddie Mabo, as sung by Neil Murray in our opening track from the 1999 album The Wondering Kind, fantastic recording; and also a well-known person on an international scale, Nelson Mandela. But sometimes there might be human rights heroes we don’t know about, and this is where – wanting your help today – if you’ve got a human rights hero, they don’t have to be as well-known or not, they could be LGBTI, they might not be, not really fussed about that; who is your human rights hero? social justice, and I’m also going to extend this idea beyond human rights and social justice, could be environmental justice, pop a comment in to me by one of the means, the aforementioned means, there’s a good word for today – it’s a bit like Sesame Street, isn’t it? Today’s word for the day is “aforementioned” – but we’re doing human rights Sesame Street. Well, who are your favourite human rights heroes? And to give you an idea of the sort of ideas, I’m going to play the little three-minute conversation I had with my friend Kayleen, and this will give you a bit of a starter, so let’s have a listen and see what you think. It says in light of the public – give a content warning here – mention of the horrible events that happened in Beirut, Lebanon in the last couple of weeks. So hence playing it this week.


And of course, there has to be a tech hitch. 😊Let’s just see what’s going on there. And see if we can give it another shot. Take two.

[Recording plays]

Kayleen White (recording): This week Sally, we’ve seen some terrible events in Lebanon and Lebanon’s had a bit of a sad history over the last few decades. But it’s easy to forget that Lebanon has quite a few marvellous people in it, and in fact a former ambassador from the United Kingdom to Lebanon when he left made a very striking speech and in it, he made a comment that the real dividing line is not between Christianity and Islam, Sonny and Cher, East and West; it is between people who believe in coexistence and those who don’t. He really quite fell in love with the people of Lebanon and to some extent I think the whole world owes a little bit of a debt to Lebanon because one of the three key intellectual lights behind the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was a Christian Arab by the name of Charles Malik. He blotted his copybook a little bit in the 60’s – but in the 40’s and early 50’s, he and the Chinese Confucian scholar PC Chang, and Eleanor Roosevelt were the leading lights behind the formulation of the, UDHR. They kept everybody working together, they kept all the ideas being debated, it considered and expressed until we came up with a product that’s been in place for so long now and has serve the world really well. So, it behoves the world to remember that Lebanon has contributed already well and truly to the world and it would be very good for the world to remember that and contribute now, in Lebanon’s time of need. What do you think Sally?

Sally Goldner (recording): I think you’ve really got something there, I mean to someone from the outside who may not know a lot, you know, and we talk of course can often get distorted views on mainstream media news that we just might think it’s a country that has been ravaged by civil war and that’s all we know, and of course that’s really unfair that if it is that perception because people are people trying to live their lives, and it has you say in the light of this terrible explosion that has happened and claimed so many innocent lives, and damaged others – many, for example, people in surrounding areas are homeless; their homes are uninhabitable or apartment buildings, structures been damaged and similar – I think that’s well worth remembering, and it was very good to see the French President visit I think very quickly, which I think was one sign as well of compassion and solidarity, President Macron. So yeah, I think it is important that we understand that, and have and be reminded of that that saying that even when it does appear to be divided, that we can find what matters about how we coexist. I could, just be to use a phrase I learned a few years ago from a mental health professional, I could be gently challenging and say it’s then how we achieve it. Now I also have a personal saying – how do you communicate with someone who won’t listen? – and I suppose when one party won’t listen and therefore finds it hard to coexist that’s where we could have a challenge.

[recording ends]

Sally Goldner: Indeed. So, some thoughts in there. What are your thoughts? Human rights heroes; known or unknown; how to communicate? There’s our conversation starter, the first I hope of many – and I’ll come back and talk about the process as well as this issue – but if you’ve got your human rights heroes, get in touch with me via all the means of communication email, SMS 61456751215, tweet @salgoldsaidso – and that’s the bottom line – and look for the posts on Facebook 3CR 855 AM Melbourne and my page Sally Gardner AM. And of course, a reminder any opinions expressed on this so by me my own personal opinions. Let’s have a listen now to someone who’s, well, I think that he – and in this case, this band – have always fought for human rights, and bit of a 70’s classic. 3CR 855AM, 3CR digital, and 3CR On Demand. Out of the Pan with Sally.

[Nuclear Cop (Live) by Redgum]

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Sally Goldner: 3CR 855AM, 3CR digital,, 3CR on-demand. Out of the Pan with Sally, first broadcasting noon until one every Sunday afternoon. Thanks for your company. And well, human rights heroes. Well, John Schumann, you could say he’s way, bit of a human rights social justice hero who stood up for things, you know, sort of with his sense of humour and irony, might play some more music from John. Excuse me. Why is it the cough always comes up just when you start a new segment? Might play some more music from John later on-air, live radio people of all genders. So, human rights heroes.

Well, one who I like – and I think, well, human rights and social justice just to expand that a little – is, I’m going to go for Greta Thunberg. Now, you can argue about her views, I don’t claim to be a climate expert, lots of great climate shows you can – and environment type shows you can listen to on 3CR; Earth Matters at 11 o’clock Saturday; also forgot to thank the crew from Out of the Blue for diving deep for the marine news, every Sunday from 11:30 till noon; and whilst it’s not quite environment, sort of ballpark of the same thing, and that’s of course Freedom of Species, which follows at one o’clock. So lots of environmental news, but I think Greta Thunberg deserves extra credit because she’s just – well, she’s out there doing it, which takes courage and initiative but then of course she faces not only people with the sort of poor record on environment and – sorry, who – sorry, but when I say poor record environment, people who would disagree with the views, often with vested interests or other things – but then of course Greta sadly faces youth phobia; and then she faces, well, I could use the term prejudice on the basis of disability, a point that one might go stronger than prejudice – vilification and/ or prejudice and vilification on the basis of her neuro-processing and of course, you know, I doubt, you know, it’s just another excuse to have a go at someone.

So, definitely, there’s someone who stands up for what he believes in and is just amazing, and of course the thing with Greta, of course, is how much she’s inspired people, we’ll have to say pre-COVID, to do the climate change rallies and you know what she’s done and of course great signs that at those rallies; one that stood out for me, I things are so bad even the introverts are here – introverts of the world unite, quietly together in our own homes – which leads me into someone else you could name who you know who, in a way has done stuff for, you know, sort of for human rights and social justice and inclusion and that’s people who have written books about introverts like Susan Cain who wrote Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking, says this person who comes and talks at you for an hour every Sunday, but then has to go and lie down quietly afterwards because I need – introverts recharge in personal space, that sort of thing. Also, I want to give credit, whilst Susan Cain’s book is possibly the world’s… that book is possibly the world’s most well-known book when it comes to introversion, do like to give credit to two other books, there’s The Introvert Advantage by Marti Laney, and there’s also Introvert Power. Yes, we’ll do that. What is it? Yes, introverts of the world, unite quietly together in your own homes, via the internet, and it’s been interesting that introverts, well, no, and of course no disrespect to extroverts or – of course, because we don’t like binaries; ambiverts – yeah, that introverts have seemed to have been ok with this. I also identify with the trait that has some crossover, although it’s not the same as an introvert, but that’s the highly sensitive person where we pick up on energies a lot.

Well, haven’t had a lot of that there and for the last six weeks, but we also need our support in our way one-on-one, that sort of thing. And the other great book on introversion is Introvert Power by Laurie Helgoe. Now, they’re people who in their way, whilst you mightn’t call them “advocates” as such or things like that, or of course, if I was on commercial radio it’d be “these lefty activists” – sorry got that wrong, lefty, politically correct, oversensitive, pinko, greenie, tree-hugging activists – I’ll  just get my tongue out of my cheek, the other great introvert book is Introvert Power by Laurie Helgoe, PHD. Eh, what’s up, Doc? You’re a PhD. Seriously, there’s lots of people who have done things to communicate information about diversity, that’s a form of human rights advocacy, and have had a response, a couple of responses from the fabulous Roving Reporter who says “I liked Frida Kahlo, (K-A-H-L-O) as she communicated her activism through art”. Yep. There’s another way you could be an activist who does things through art. I think if I may say so, I’d be willing to – and I think she’d be okay with this – nominate Sarah Ward, the person behind Yana Alana, Queen Kong and other great characters, for what she does and Roving goes on to “She may not be defined as a human rights activist by some but she is still relevant today years after her death. I also admire people like John Lewis who passed away recently in the USA”. Oh absolutely, “there’s someone in there, he wasn’t mentioned a lot in our media until his death but his contribution to race relations in the USA is very significant and his funeral procession was incredibly beautiful Sally”. Yep, did see a bit of that on the news. Also, another message, also from Roving, “I’ve also always admired Gillian Triggs when she was at the HRC despite the relentless harassment by News Corp and the IPA” and that of course… yeah the… against her, yes – but it’s their individual freedom to do it – oh sorry, I just slipped in a puddle of my own sarcasm.

Anyway, what else have we got? We’ve had another message or two here from sort of… sort of… ah yes. Here’s someone. Now here’s, here’s one of perhaps the lesser-known people and we sometimes play this person on the show, Kayleen says “Greta is a great choice. On local choice for consideration, how about Penelope Swales? Apart from her music, she worked extremely hard to get legal qualifications, you can also get a list of people on Kayleen’s blog” and I’ll say this and then spell it and that is gnwmythr, and I hope I’ve got that right, I apologise. So better spell it, heroines and as we click on it, we’ll see who comes up here. This is the sort of discussion we like, heroines and heroes and of course, there could be what ah – here’s another topic for today; what’s the non-binary equivalent word of heroines and heroes, or all-inclusive, gender all-inclusive award? Word that is. So, Greta Thunberg; Malala Yousafzai; Kamala Harris, yes, who’s nominated for Veep; Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez; Nyadol Nyuon; on we go, Jacinda Ardern, yep, oh gosh – please, can you benignly invade Australia please Jacinda at a national level and then just appoint Daniel Andrews deputy or something? That’ll do. Justin Trudeau, had his ups and downs there but I think a lot of – I’ll come back to that point as well – and Ruth Bader Ginsberg, yep.

Others in the past: Nelson Mandela; Abraham Lincoln; Eleanor Roosevelt; Charles Malik, who quoted earlier, Peng Chun [Chang]; Martin Luther King Jr., who of course, Totally Gourdgeous featuring Penelope Swales did a song [sic] about it, and if I thought of this then last week, I would have held off and played that song this week; Mahatma Gandhi; many, many others here, we could go on. So, there’s Steve Biko and there’s lots here, so yeah, plenty of people who could be your heroes. So yeah, keep sending them in, people of all genders: who are your human rights, social justice and, as I say I’m going to expand this to environment, just as type of heroic people I think is the best way I can come up with for now. Let’s have that rolling, and good news: small technical hitch solved.

Here’s someone who has definitely been a hero I think for many people, and I’d also say that, you know, some people don’t like the word, I totally acknowledge what the sadly missed but late and great Stella Young – there’s another one, they’re just flowing now, aren’t they? – who you know, didn’t like the… he may have created, you mentioned the term “inspiration porn”, and I think sometimes that can be that way, but someone who, well, in a positive sense of the word is inspiring and heroic is Archie Roach, and here’s one of his classic tracks from many years ago from the album Charcoal Lane, and well, perhaps we’ll give a content warning here for a difficult topic, it’s his song Took the Children Away. But at least this song has some, [sic] certainly this song has some positives towards the end as well. 3CR 855AM, 3CR digital, and 3CR On Demand. Out of the Pan with Sally.

[Took the Children Away by Archie Roach]

Sally Goldner: 3CR 855AM, 3CR digital,, 3CR On-Demand. Out of the Pan with Sally, first broadcasting noon until one every Sunday afternoon. Thanks for your company. Well, what a beautiful track and there’s someone, yeah, who I think could be described as a human-rights, social justice type of hero: Archie Roach from Charcoal Lane. And the children came back, took the children away and they did come back but – musical credits on that: the late, great Steve Connolly on electric guitar; Dave Arden on acoustic; Paul Kelly on acoustic guitar and vocal harmonies; James Black on organ; Ray Pereira on it says here “flash and tambourine”; Rob Dylan on symbol; and Tim Finn on vocal harmony.

So, yep, that’s a pretty awesome, you know, sort of example of people standing up – of doing their social justice through art in the broader sense of that word and well, we hope we can do more art in some ways in the near future, [sic] in the near future again, very soon. Obviously going tough for artists who you know sort of, are often more on the progressive side, you get a tougher so, you know, [sic] situation, who faced tougher situations – and also, you know sort of, [sic] what was I going to say? Yeah. Also, of course a large percentage of LGBTIQA+ people, for whom this program is a considerable central focus of, in there as well. And Kayleen has also nominated her partners, her partner Charlotte and her other partner Sarah, and that is, I believe that would be Charlotte’s other partner “for their dog rescue and vegan and other activism” and also says “brave effort with gnwmythr”, I hope I’ll get it right, I’ll keep, we’ll practice that. Perhaps if you can do the, send in the phonetics to me on that one Kayleen, and we’ll go for third time lucky. Yep, and of course remember animal activism and vegan and vegetarian activism, coming up at 1 o’clock with the fabulous crew from Freedom of Species, doing great things there. So yeah, lots of activists. Now I want go back to Rovings comment about, sort of, Gillian Triggs and I really admire Gillian, I wanted to mention this and Roving, I think quite reasonably mentions the relentless harassment by News [sic] “News Corpse”, as it’s called or “Murder Media”, including the “Daily Terror” and the “Herald Scum”, and… we need to come up with some, well, I suppose now for the, I don’t know, the Brisbane equivalent. Well, definitely “The Courier Toxic Mail”, but anyway, if you’ve got a better name come up, with it.

So yeah lots in there, and yeah, look, Gillian has I think kept her dignity in an incredible way, you know in face of those comments, and I think and it was interesting a few years ago that the news periodical Crikey gave her the person, [sic] their Person of the Year award or Australian of the Year type award, and in the same list was Roz Ward who is also of course faced similar horrendous attacks from “News Corpse” and you know, I think that they manage to keep their dignity in public – and I’m sure they have their supports – is pretty awesome. Now, we did call human rights and social justice the same, some, the fact that Daniel Andrews is facing relentless grilling’s every day, and is up now – what is it? 42-44 days in a row, [sic] lost count – quite amazing. Roving’s put in a good one here, “is Bono”, front man U2, “a great human rights activist or as some people think a pretentious rock star using social causes for his own ego Sally? Are celebrities worthy to be champions and where do we draw the line with shallow activism?” Excellent questions Roving. Let’s look at the broader one first. May [sic] not be the best most philosophical quote of all time, but I’m going to throw one of my own in here and it’s an adaption of a certain superhero, Batman, “use your privilege for good and not evil purposes, Robin”.

Now, there is some, possibly, degree of pretentiousness to Bono but, [sic] can’t deny also what he did, I mean, whether it’s faded in more recent times and the, you know, the when you look at the original U2 sound, that raw, sort of, social conscious sound, you know, “it takes seconds to start a war” and all those sorts of songs and, Sunday Bloody Sunday, which of course, if you’ve ever listened to the live album [U2 Live at Red Rocks: Under a Blood Red Sky] is not a rebel song, that was about something else. Seriously, you know, there was some passion in those songs, and I’ve got to admit by the time I got to Lemon – which I think was an appropriately named song – I  think I’d given up. I can’t say I agree though, with people who spat the dummy a few years ago because they got a free download of U2’s latest album, you know, I think it was in one of their smartphone platforms – well, just don’t listen, you know that sort of thing. So yeah, I think he’s done some good work. I think a good example of people using their celebrity status for good, I’d give credit to Sting, I think Sting’s done some good things. Don Henley whose, [sic] and The Walden Woods Project, are a couple of others on the music front, said this long [sic] Eagles fan, and of course listeners to this show are long-suffering Eagles and Eagles solo fans with me.

Now, yeah sort of, where are celebrities worthy of being champions? Well, I think you can be both – as I say, it’s how you use it. Where do we draw the line with shallow activism? Well, it’s where people perhaps don’t stop and think beyond their own experience might be one criteria, you know, when you have, you know, I can think of one person in the LGBTI community who was all over – a few years ago, of course, this was – the well, probably use the term same-sex marriage or gay marriage, and wouldn’t use the term “LGBTI” because in her words “it’s too hard to explain that to straight audiences”, now, this person was a cis-gender, heterosexual woman who was the parent of a, [sic] had a gay son. Fine if you want to talk about your own personal experiences; fine if you want to talk about marriage so that it was not discriminatory, fine; but don’t then erase the other people. So that’s a fail. And [sic] I’ll of course, we could mention others Caitlyn Jenner hasn’t always got it, right. There’s also other people we could debate. So yeah, it’s about how you do it. A sense of humility I think goes a long way.

Kayleen’s come back and said the “g” is silent – bit of a nod to the Welsh – so the phonetics are “new-meth-a, new-meth-a”, I will now say that over and over as we do the next track.

So other comments, Roving said ”What do you think makes a great human rights activist?” well, I think humility is an important thing, and I think this is also leading on to another important topic, that you can stand for the group’s you identify with. So for me, let’s use this person as a straw case, obviously I think I can speak pretty strongly on broad issues for bi and trans. But I can’t speak for you know, say broadly, people of colour and if the issue specifically is trans people of colour, then I need to switch to be an ally.

So I think that’s another criteria, is to be able to move seamlessly from leader to then have the humility to be an ally and be led in a way by others, and that’s you know, and when we live in a toxic masculinity society, which defines leadership as “take charge, stand tough” [sic] look, listen to the voice that I did that in and that’s possibly deliberate, and possibly unconscious. I think that says something about people who can round out their leadership styles. There’s a great article from a few years ago on leadership and it’s about having that ability to move seamlessly from perhaps a more direct style to a more conciliatory style, sometimes even in the same meeting where you have to deal with different people, give people we’ll say individual centered communication styles.

Who else have we got? Roving’s nominated Jane Fonda, which is a fair call, and I think that’s pretty reasonable, I think she’s stood up for feminism. I mean, she’s still doing it, she got arreste. I think recently, I think it was over, honestly can’t remember which protest it was it may have been Black Lives Matter forgive me a but I know it rings a bell.

Well, [sic] I’m telepathy hero thing after all these years. Midnight Oil is a group that is worthy of recognition especially with Peter Garrett, well I’ll back that. Gee, I wonder what track I’ve got planned for the end of the show. And Roving said, “I’d love to know who it is” well, yeah, we’ll come back to that or maybe, maybe not. And someone else has popped in with a comment, let’s have a look at this one, and the person is just signed their name “O”, I think I know who it is. Oh, well, alright. I’ll borrow from Wendy Rule who once said “when you get a compliment take the fresh air and breathe it in”, “Sally, you are our activist hero. You don’t only stand up for us, but you see and have an underlying love and compassion for every human being, cause or emotion. I look something” I’m not going to read that last one out there I’ll say from “O”, no. You know the thing is we can model ourselves on other people, and I’ve been fortunate to have, you know, sort of, [sic] model ourselves, and you know, we can admire them and learn from but you don’t have to feel in any we’ll say, bad next to someone, we can all just keep learning, you know, and this is where our eyes, and I’ve said a few times over the last few months, I’m still learning about issues for black, indigenous people of colour. And Roving’s come back and said “great analysis Sally. It’s why the BLM”, Black Lives Matters “movement has so many issues with some white middle-class people being quite pretentious and shallow about race”. So yeah, there’s a fair call, you know, I think that it does take work. I think you know, it’s sort of, I think you can sometimes, I would prefer personally to see allies, you know, take small steps, give it a shot, maybe you’ll get it wrong, just as long as you keep learning and I’m sure I have got things wrong on things that are beyond my lived expertise, so that’s really important.

And someone who’s well, putting money in is where her mouth is this week, who’s also long-suffering music listens to this show will know about is Dolly Parton, who has changed the name of I think it was a her theme park from “dixie” to something else because “dixie” can be considered racially offensive and she’s probably [sic], she could possibly lose business so there’s giving up some privilege which is a fair call. So lots to consider in there. That’s really worth, sort of, thinking about. Yeah, and of course within the LGBTI community it is now time for cis-gender monosexual gays and lesbians to give up their privilege. Lots of people waited very, with great restraint I’ll say, or the best restraint possible – not in a kinky way – maybe, maybe they did – for marriage equality to happen. Now, it’s time for gays and lesbians to stand back and give bi, trans, intersex, asexual, everyone else a shot – particularly intersex, and of course a reminder that there’s two big intersex days in a couple of months. Start planning your events for late October,  early November and if you are a person with a variation of sex characteristics the offer is always there to tell your personal story.

And Roving’s come back and says that they agree with the listener. It really means a lot to get those compliments I mean, I love doing what I’m doing, but of course we have our ups and downs and it is [sic] thank you very much for those kind words. All right, I think I’d better take a breath. Activists need to take a breath in literally and metaphorically – so I’ll do that. And also [sic] happily we’ve fixed up some technical hitches earlier in the show, we’ll just say when in doubt, with the program close and restart, and of course that’s inevitably going to work. In the meantime, have a listen to someone who, sort of always sort of, stood up for the underdog have a bit of this track I reckon if we’ve got time, we have. Here’s another one I said, I’d play another one from John Schumann, this is one from one of his solo albums True Believers, which has all sorts of influential figures up to about 1992 on the front when it was published, some for better or worse, but here’s someone who you know, and I think this is so pertinent today when we have some strange business people trying to influence Australia and the world, it’s a track called Fallen Angel. 3CR 855AM, 3CR Digital,, and 3cr on-demand. Out of the Pan with Sally.

[Fallen Angel by John Schumann]

Voice-over: Published… Or Not has been around for years. But now Jan Goldsmith is joined by David McLean. We will chat about words and writing, authors and audiences, publishers and printing. A voice for them all on 3CR. Published… Or Not, every Thursday, 11:30 till noon.

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Sally Goldner: 3CR 855AM, 3CR Digital, and 3CR On-Demand. Out of the Pan with Sally, first broadcasting noon till one every Sunday afternoon, thanks for your company.

Couple of the humorous things that have happened during the week. Well, there’s apparently a spat going on between a Trump campaign adviser and Marge Simpson, “Homer!” well, no, and well, the character said she’s starting to feel a little disrespected in a clip after someone called Jenna Ellis said, Kamala Harris “sounds like Marge Simpson”. So what? You know, seriously – that’s what American politics is and I mean, you know the attacks on Kamala Harris and we won’t mention a certain newspaper. Someone else has thanked me for the work, thank you, Kayleen.

So yeah, that’s what we’ve come to. But on a really humorous note, this just came up in my feed over the weekend; stupid survey questions believe this one or not, I’m looking at this on the screen now, I don’t know if this is real or not, but it’s still funny: “have you ever been in an accident that resulted in your death?” Hmm. I’d have to send a gmail to to find out whether to answer yes or no. Seriously who writes these things?

Yeah. As someone I used to know said “I got good grandma”, good grammar. Couple of other messages, oh, yes the person who emailed in the “O” was a hug at the end, thank you. I’ll just say person Z. My apologies, [sic] a bit excited there but yes, safe distance hugs back to you and all listeners. Please stay safe out there, please sort of, keep an eye on, you know, follow the restrictions, it does look like things are moving in the right direction which is really good, and we can have less restrictions soon. Wear you mask where are you know, totally acknowledging that people, you know, may not be able to wear masks due to past trauma; breathing issues, but let’s you know, if someone isn’t wearing a mask don’t just rush in and lecture – ask why – and we’ve seen disastrous consequences of that during the week with a older male police officer, you know, gang tackling of young vulnerable petite female to the ground.

Other comments ”cis, gay, middle class, gay men need to acknowledge their own inherent bias, and sometimes that leads to uncomfortable conversations when they’re at the top of the tree in our community” Yes, exactly. I better not say any more, or the whole podcast will be removed as happened before, hmm, there’s a hint. “It’s their responsibility to educate themselves and be respectful of other individuals outside their own bubble. Privilege Sally leads to toxicity” yes, I’d agree with that. And the other comment, “one last person I admire in the queer/ bi community by black/ indigenous/ people of colour space is Jameela Jamil. Check out her podcast and social media. Sassy, smart and thoughtful” I’ll go with that any day, and Roving also says “have a lovely week and I hope that all the activists take time to have a life and look after themselves so they continue their wonderful work” yeah got to do self-care, and I remember in episode a while ago, which is probably still available ,where Freedom of Species, coming up next if you’re listening live or of course check out their podcast, talked about self-care for activists as well. Well, I promised you a Midnight Oil track, so I will deliver on my promises, I am not a politician. Seriously, take it out today with a track from Midnight Oil from their live album of 1992, which is always a fav, and Sometimes, from the [sic] which was originally recorded at Our Common Future in Darlinghurst 1989. Thanks for tuning in to Out of the Pan, I’m Sally Goldner. Catch ya next week.

[Sometimes by Midnight Oil]